Earlier this season there was much discussion regarding defensive positions under the basket. Today in a boys' H.S.
freshmen game I had these two plays.

Play #1: Early in the first quarter, I was Lead, table side, when V1 drove toward the basket along the endline from my left to right. V1 drove past H1 and just before V1 became airborne H2 took a legal position facing V1 directly under the basket. V1 released his field gold attempt and then charged into H2 before returning to the court. I disallowed the basket and charged V1 with a player control foul for charging.

Play #2: Mid-way through the third quarter, I was Lead, opposite the table and had on ball coverage, when V1 drove toward the basket. H1 took a legal guarding position against V1 directly under the basket just before V1 became airborne. V1 released his field gold attempt and then charged into H1 before returning to the court. I disallowed the basket and charged V1 with a player control foul for charging.

Needless to say, V1, Coach V, and Team V fans did not like the calls. But don't you just love it when the fans boo.

My partner and I had a cool thing happen last week.

Captain and Stud of each team was #40.

First foul of the game: (me) V40 crashes into H40 on a drive 5' from the hoop.
2nd foul of the game: (partner) H40 crashes into V40 on a drive 5' from the hoop.

mick

I love it when they boo after I've gotten a call right.

If I know I kicked it, on the other hand . . . :rolleyes:

Mark - why did you cancel the basket? Is this another area where FIBA differs to NFHS? Under FIBA rules, the basket would have counted since V1 had released the ball before causing contact with H2.

Just curious....

You are correct, under FIBA and NCAA Men's rules, if the contact comes after the release of the field goal attempt the basket would count and if Team H was in the bonus H1 would shoot free throws. But under NFHS and NCAA Women's rules, if contact occurs at anytime before the shooter returns to the floor, the foul is considered a player control foul and the basket does not count.

But the real point of my posting was that the defender had a legal position under the basket and I just wanted to get everybody all riled up again. I guess I am getting cantankerous in my old age.

Mark, did you get my email about the Masters?

THE DARK SIDE MUST GIVE OPINION
 

on play 1, and 2 i would have block or nothing.
but this again is my opinion.

Re: THE DARK SIDE MUST GIVE OPINION
 

I am curious - by NFHS rules, this is clearly PC in both cases - unless you're following other rules, how COULD you have a block? A no-call doesn't seem to fit, but a block is definitely wrong - again, by NFHS rules, and the way the play was described.

Re: Re: THE DARK SIDE MUST GIVE OPINION
 

David,both the NCAA mens and NFHS rulebooks say you can never have a block because the defensive player had a legal guarding position before the offensive player became airborne.Just that simple.It has to be a charge or nothing.Some officials don't use the rulebook as a basis for their play-calling.I'm sure that you will discover that shortly.You may get a lot of "philosophy",but what you won't get is any kind of rules reference that will back it up.You have fun with it,'cause I ain't gonna play around with it again.:D

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 5th, 2002 at 04:49 AM]

"Needless to say, V1, Coach V, and Team V fans did not like the calls."

Mark's call is absolutely correct ACCORDING TO NF RULES.
It think his statement is indicative of the changing
philosophy and expectations of players and coaches in today's game.
Not saying that their expectations should dictate how we call the game, but it's time for a rule (definition) change.
We've beaten this topic to a pulp so let's not do it again.
Rules need to be changed when they become obsolete or impractical.
IMO, this one fits both those criteria.

Amen,Drake!I can think of a few more I'd love to see changed.Until they do,though,we gotta live with the ones we got.You never know who's watching-at any level.

I personally love the NCAA Women's interpretation on these plays...unless the drive is parallel to the baseline - as in play 1 - you can not have a PC foul directly under the basket...it is not legitimate defense according to this interpretation...on the drive parallel to the baseline, the offensive player could be going for a reverse, and so position under the basket is cutting them off from that...all other plays, it is a block or nothing (heavy emphasis on calling the block)

My only reaction was shock that the visiting FRESHMAN team had fans! Was the bowling alley closed?

Good call. Why anyone would even question it or suggest to call it otherwise in an NFHS game eludes me. Imagine all the out-of-control drives we'd have if the offense couldn't be called for PC in that scenario..man would that be ugly!

Z

The NCAA Women's interpretation is the most stupid and idiotic thing in the world. I don't even want to go there, but I see that I stirred up the hornet's nest again. Sorry guys.

But for reasons that I have given before, the rules are fine as they are.

Hawks Coach, that is not a nice thing to say about the visitors and bowling even though bowling, beer and Toledo always go together. By the way I am not a native of Toledo, I live there because I married a wonderful woman from Toledo.


to: Oz, yes I did get your email. Thanks.

Stupid and idiotic...hmmm, interesting. So you would rather have defensive players sliding over and setting up under the basket on every drive - thus taking away most penetration plays??? I think the NCAA Women's interpretation on this is probably the best one out there - it allows for good, solid defense but takes away the "Cheap" (my words, no one else's) PC fouls that take away from the game...just one person's opinion...

Its funny how people can knock the women's rules when these same people have never refereed a women's game. For those of us who have officiated women's, it is clear we like this rule.

what is even more ironic is that mark d. is a nc2a womens official, supposedly.

Gentlemen, I am very familiar with the NCAA Women's rules. I only officiate a couple of women's game each year because of family obligations, but in 1974-75 I became the first male to officiate a women's college basketball game in the State of Florida. That is how long I have been involved in the women's game. I have many friends who still officiate women's basketball at the Div. I level (including two who also officiate in the WNBA and one who has officiated in the Olympics).

The NBA/WNBA rule that is used the NCAA women's game (without the semi-circle on the court) is just plain bad for the game. In the other thread I have listed the reasons why the NFHS/NCAA Men's rules are the correct way to handle this situation. The ball handler cannot drive anywhere he/she pleases without immunity. A ball handler who drives to the basket must be able to complete his drive without making illegal contact with any defensive player who has a legal position on the court. I think that everybody will agree that a layup is a higher percentage shot for the ball handler, than having to stop short and take a jump shot. That is the reason for allowing a defensive player to take a legal position anywhere on the court, even if it is under the basket. The ball handler must make a decision, drive to the hoop for the high percentage layup and risk making illegal contact with a defender who has a legal position on the court or stop short and shoot a lower percentage shot and not risk making illegal contact with a defender who has a legal position on the court. This is the reasoning for the way that the rules are written for NFHS/NCAA Men's and how the NCAA Women's rules use to be.

It is not a cheap foul when B1 "slides" over and takes a legal position on the court before A1 becomes an airborne player with the ball and forces A1 to make the decision that I listed above.

Personally, this is not a difficult call to make. The problem is that players, coaches, some assigners, and fans do not know the rule or the basis for the rule. The coaches complain, and in some states where coaches decide who does and does not officiate, dictate how the game is going to be called.

Officials have to know the rules and the basis for why a rule is written in such a manner. And then enforce the rule according to these guidelines and not the way coaches, media talking heads, and other laymen think the game should be officiated.

Wow...thanks for the sermon...as someone who also knows (and works with) many different D-I officials, and knows several WNBA officials, and blah, blah, blah, I must remind you that the NFHS/NCAA Men's interpretation is the way to call that play when working NFHS or NCAA Men's games...I certainly hope that you do not call it that way in NCAA Women's games, because that IS NOT the rule for NCAA Women's games...when I work a HS game, I will call it according to the Fed rules, but when I work a Women's NCAA game, I will call it according to their rules - hopefully you are capable of doing the same...

I never (please forgive me J. Dallas Shirley) said I did not officiate a women's game according to the rules. But I do believer in aggressively pointing out how idiotic the rule on the NCAA Women's side is. It is idiotic and illogical and always (please forgive me J. Dallas Shirley) will be illogical and idiotic.

that could be why you do not work many of these games anymore. just a thought.

Oooooohhhhhh, kinda nasty aren't we?

Well if crew can be nasty so can I...well actually I am going to borrow a quote from a certain Div. 1 Men's Coach..."I wouldn't watch women's basketball if they played naked."
There I said it...and trust me...I'm not the only one who feels that way.
Sorry, I don't want to Ref any level of any girls games. They suck!! I commend all you referees who do it, because it has to be UGLY!! Most couch potatoes out there feel they can go out and star on a WNBA team because they look so slow. Yeah, they probably couldn't, but I bet more than a few H.S. boys could.
I know what I am saying is not politically correct...and I even bet a lot of you agree with me. But, I also know there is a slim chance for you that agree with me to defend me as I am about to get hammered. :)

Peace, Love and Boys basketball...
RookieDude

R.D.
i do not enjoy womens basketball either. though i do the games i am assigned 100%, and as a stage to work on my mechanics and cosmetic flaws.

Mark T.D
I can fully appreciate that NFHS/NCAA men hava a different rule than NCAA women/WNBA/NBA. But there are a lot of good basketball minds at all of these levels and they have determined to draw different conclusions. Those that deal with the highest level men's and women's games are clear obtuse, and those that deal with HS boys and below clearly have a better sense of what is and is not good basketball in your world.

In my world, I fully understand your argument and realize that this argument (and maybe some others) are why certain organizations allow a charging call under the basket. Other organizations believe that to play defense, you should defend something other than a landing zone - like a shooter, dribbler, or passer that still has the ball in their possession. That is a difference in philosophy regarding the proper way to play defense, and neither is necessarily more right than the other (except in your world).

When you see how high the pro players get off the floor and how quickly the plays develop at that level, it makes sense in the NBA to discourage any attempt to draw a charge directly under the basket. It is too easy to hurt someone. Don't forget, for every charge there will probably be two blocks by players who try to draw the charge and arrive late. Those blocks would not occur if the defensive player did not think they had a chance to draw a charge directly nder the basket. So each of those blocks that occur directly under the basket results in a foul on the defense and a potentially dangerous contact on the offensive player who has a right to be where they are. By allowing charging calls under the basket, we risk offensive injury simply for the shaky principle that a defender must be allowed to attempt to defend a landing spot.

Many leagues believe that this simply does not make sense, and many of us happen to agree. I really doubt that all of us are the idiots you would make us out to be - we just have a different sense of what the appropriate boundaries should be. It makes as much sense to call this stupid as it would to label people stupid for having different three-point line distances. We can argue about what the right distance should be without categorizing others who think differently as idiots - especially when there are a lot of them and they give these issues serious consideration.

My only surprise is that the college women moved to change this before men, who are above the rim and much more exposed to danger. I am waiting for the men to adopt this change.

I can tell you why the women changed but I just got home from officiating and I really do not feel like getting on my soap box tonight.

As far as officiating women's games I have been cutting down my schedule for the last couple of years because our children are getting older.

Very well said, Hawks Coach...hey, do you talk to the refs that logically and sanely DURING your games also????