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-   -   Is This Player Control? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/39998-player-control.html)

rainmaker Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
Where does this term appear in the books?
It's working.
Yup, I'm getting good!:D

kbilla Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Here's A1 a t the line. He shoots the FT, it bounces off the rim back toward A1. He reaches up to catch the ball, but B1 is up there already and takes the ball. Now as B1 comes down onto A1, A1 has to move out of B1's way, or get called for a block?? Is that what you're saying?
Honestly if a1 was just standing there doing nothing, you're right I couldn't have a block, I think I was trying to picture a situation that maybe wasn't in the OP...that being said I think this thread has evolved into a wider discussion about guarding and when someone is guarding vs. not and i think some have a much narrower interp of what "guarding" is than i...

just another ref Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Screening and guarding aren't the only two possible actions for a player to be committing. He might be looking at the cheerleaders, trying to remember where he is supposed to go if the ball goes into the basket, looked at the clock to calculate how late he'll be for his date. He might be waiting for his teammate to approach so they can set a trap. He might be concentrating on not drifting out toward the sideline. All of these actions give him the right to stand on his spot on the floor without an opponent slamming into him.
He might be contemplating the universe and his life situation and thinking to himself over and over: I'm so glad I'm not a woman.

rainmaker Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
He might be contemplating the universe and his life situation and thinking to himself over and over: I'm so glad I'm not a woman.
Well, then he's an idiot and he should be plowed. If I see someone contemplating that, the dribbler can just tackle him, for all I care.

just another ref Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Well, then he's an idiot and he should be plowed. If I see someone contemplating that, the dribbler can just tackle him, for all I care.
You can tell he's contemplating that by looking?

rainmaker Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
You can tell he's contemplating that by looking?
That's why he's an idiot. Who wouldn't want that kind of instinct?

rainmaker Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:31pm
MTD -- Isn't there a sentence somewhere in the rule book about responsibility for contact being on the player who's behind the other? I seem to remember someting about that, but I can't find it.

just another ref Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
That's why he's an idiot. Who wouldn't want that kind of instinct?
I have nothing further to add. Where's Padgett when you need him?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
MTD -- Isn't there a sentence somewhere in the rule book about responsibility for contact being on the player who's behind the other? I seem to remember someting about that, but I can't find it.

Juulie:

Yes there is. But I can't remember if it is in the guarding or screening rules. I really shouldn't be online since I have a bad head cold and my family wouldn't let me go to our sons' swim meet this afternoon so I could stay home and rest. So here I am very bored and making posts. LOL

MTD, Sr.

just another ref Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
MTD -- Isn't there a sentence somewhere in the rule book about responsibility for contact being on the player who's behind the other? I seem to remember someting about that, but I can't find it.
4-27-5: ...if, however, a player approaches an opponent from behind or from a position from which he/she has no reasonable chance to play the ball without making contact with the opponent, the responsibility is on the player in the unfavorable position.

rainmaker Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
So here I am very bored and making posts..
Bored on the board?? lol

I'm camping on the board a lot lately, staying home a lot, not feeling real well. I'm finding it bracing and uplifting arguing with people. Especially when I'm right. It's not so much fun when I turn out to be wrong!!

kbilla Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
kbilla:

Please read completely the two sections in Rule 4 that cover guarding and screening. Then tell me what what are the differences between guarding and screening, especially how a player obtains a legal guarding position and how a player sets a screen. As JR said in a post above, you are confusing guarding principles with screening principles. AND, yes defensive players can set screens. Read the definition of screening.

Remember, if a player has legally gained a position on the court, he can stand there the entire game. And if he never moves from that position the entire game and an opponent runs into him, guess what, his opponent has committed a foul against him.

MTD, Sr.
I just re-read them again completely...by definition they don't appear a whole heck of a lot different, "legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent" vs. "legal action without contact that delays or prevents an opponent from obtaining a desired position". what is different are the requirements for each, most applicable in this thread being that if you are screening there is no need to face the opponent, whereas you must be facing in order to obtain LGP. Are you drawing your difference from the fact that A1 didn't "move" into a guarding position, since he/she was already standing there you have a screen? What if A1 moved a step to his/her left and B1 slammed into A1's back, what do you have there? As I posted much earlier, what if B1 saw that A1 was dribbling to a certain spot and B1 got there first with his/her back turned, do you have a pc foul if there is contact? I realize that I may have been a bit too aggressive applying the guarding principle in the OP, I am just trying to see where you all draw the line....

rainmaker Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
Are you drawing your difference from the fact that A1 didn't "move" into a guarding position, since he/she was already standing there you have a screen? What if A1 moved a step to his/her left and B1 slammed into A1's back, what do you have there? As I posted much earlier, what if B1 saw that A1 was dribbling to a certain spot and B1 got there first with his/her back turned, do you have a pc foul if there is contact? I realize that I may have been a bit too aggressive applying the guarding principle in the OP, I am just trying to see where you all draw the line....
Kbilla in the OP the guy who shot the ft and then got fouled was neither screening nor guarding, but he had a legal position on the floor which was violated by the opponent who came down on top of him. It wasn't a block, because the player in front wasn't blocking. and it was PC because the player behind initiated contact, and caused the contact illegally.

kbilla Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Kbilla in the OP the guy who shot the ft and then got fouled was neither screening nor guarding, but he had a legal position on the floor which was violated by the opponent who came down on top of him. It wasn't a block, because the player in front wasn't blocking. and it was PC because the player behind initiated contact, and caused the contact illegally.
ok, point conceded, what about the other sections of my last post?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
I just re-read them again completely...by definition they don't appear a whole heck of a lot different, "legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent" vs. "legal action without contact that delays or prevents an opponent from obtaining a desired position". what is different are the requirements for each, most applicable in this thread being that if you are screening there is no need to face the opponent, whereas you must be facing in order to obtain LGP. Are you drawing your difference from the fact that A1 didn't "move" into a guarding position, since he/she was already standing there you have a screen? What if A1 moved a step to his/her left and B1 slammed into A1's back, what do you have there? As I posted much earlier, what if B1 saw that A1 was dribbling to a certain spot and B1 got there first with his/her back turned, do you have a pc foul if there is contact? I realize that I may have been a bit too aggressive applying the guarding principle in the OP, I am just trying to see where you all draw the line....

Atta boy kbilla, now you are getting the hang of it. We are going to make a top notch basketball official out of you yet.

MTD, Sr.


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