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-   -   Is This Player Control? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/39998-player-control.html)

kbilla Sat Dec 01, 2007 04:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Why in the world would you call a block? A1 beats B1 and runs into B2 who has a legal position on the floor. Yes B2 is not guarding A1 but since he has a legal position on the court, he is considered to be setting a screen which A1 must go around without making illegal contact with B2.

MTD, Sr.
B2 is setting a screen? on defense?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
Here we go again, I don't recall asking you for an evaluation, nor did I ask you to tell me how to call it. Why can't people on this board just go back and forth with good debate about interpretations without making stupid confrontational comments?

What if B1 had come to the floor and taken a dribble right into A1 who still had his/her back turned and you have contact, what do you have then? A1 is still "just standing there", do you consider that they are "guarding" yet?

All I am saying is that this case is not as cut and dry as you seem to make it IMO. Let's just agree to disagree. I know you're not going to recommend me to work the state finals now, I guess I'll just have to live with that...

In your play in your second paragraph above, A1 is definitely not guarding B1, BUT, A1 does have a legal position on the court and had set a legal screen against B1. Therefore, B1 just avoid contact with A1 and in your play B1 has committed a common foul which in this case a player control foul.

MTD, Sr.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
Exactly and what does it say about a LGP? "Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an opponent."...then goes on to what the defender must have to obtain an LGP (including facing the offensive player). "Every player is entitled to a spot on the floor provided they get there first and without illegally contacting an opponent"...having your back to the opponent is counter to LGP, so if it isn't a "legal position", it has to be an "illegal position" wouldn't it?

In the OP, once there is control, I would say that the defender put themselves in the path of the opponent with the ball, whether or not they were already there seems to be irrelavent in this case if the principles of an LGP are not there, I am applying 10.6.9. I will grant you this is a "tough foul" to take, but unless the offensive player came down and shoved the defender out of the way, I would have a block or no call, would have to see it...

kbilla:

You are forgetting one thing, the guarding rules apply only to the five defensive players on the court AND the screening rules apply to all ten players (both defensive and offensive) players on the court including the player in control of the ball. AND the screening rules apply in the plays we have been discussing in the thread.

MTD, Sr.

kbilla Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
In your play in your second paragraph above, A1 is definitely not guarding B1, BUT, A1 does have a legal position on the court and had set a legal screen against B1. Therefore, B1 just avoid contact with A1 and in your play B1 has committed a common foul which in this case a player control foul.

MTD, Sr.
what would A1 have to do to switch from "screening" to "guarding"?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
B2 is setting a screen? on defense?
See my post above (Post #33) and read the definition of screening.

MTD, Sr.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
what would A1 have to do to switch from "screening" to "guarding"?

Read the definition of guarding and you will find the answer to your queation.

MTD, Sr.

Jurassic Referee Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
I believe the issue is how each of us applies the "guarding" definition...the definition only says that a defender "puts themselves in the path", it doesn't say that they have to actively be doing anything....intentionally or not, A1 put him/herself in the path...from there it would seem that guarding principles would apply...
I got some sad news for you. You're the only one here that's trying to apply guarding principles to situations that have absolutely nothing to do with guarding. You're doing that because you don't understand the basic concepts used in the <b>different</b> situations.

rainmaker Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
In the OP, once there is control, I would say that the defender put themselves in the path of the opponent with the ball, whether or not they were already there seems to be irrelavent in this case if the principles of an LGP are not there,
Here's A1 a t the line. He shoots the FT, it bounces off the rim back toward A1. He reaches up to catch the ball, but B1 is up there already and takes the ball. Now as B1 comes down onto A1, A1 has to move out of B1's way, or get called for a block?? Is that what you're saying?

just another ref Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:10pm
Bottom line: If a player is standing still and his arms are not extended, it is impossible for him to commit a foul, regardless of which way anyone is facing.

kbilla Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Read the definition of guarding and you will find the answer to your queation.

MTD, Sr.
"the act of legally placing the body in the path of an opponent"...so what does that mean to you? does that mean there has to be actual "movement" into the path? in your opinion, when in my example does A1 begin "guarding" vs. "screening"?

rainmaker Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
Bottom line: If a player is standing still and his arms are not extended, it is impossible for him to commit a foul, regardless of which way anyone is facing.
... it is impossible for him to be responsible for contact. He could still commit a T for unsportsmanlike vocabulary. I'm just trying to be consistently obnoxious!

rainmaker Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
"the act of legally placing the body in the path of an opponent"...so what does that mean to you? does that mean there has to be actual "movement" into the path? in your opinion, when in my example does A1 begin "guarding" vs. "screening"?
Screening and guarding aren't the only two possible actions for a player to be committing. He might be looking at the cheerleaders, trying to remember where he is supposed to go if the ball goes into the basket, looked at the clock to calculate how late he'll be for his date. He might be waiting for his teammate to approach so they can set a trap. He might be concentrating on not drifting out toward the sideline. All of these actions give him the right ot stand on his spot on the floor without an opponent slamming into him.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
"the act of legally placing the body in the path of an opponent"...so what does that mean to you? does that mean there has to be actual "movement" into the path? in your opinion, when in my example does A1 begin "guarding" vs. "screening"?

kbilla:

Please read completely the two sections in Rule 4 that cover guarding and screening. Then tell me what what are the differences between guarding and screening, especially how a player obtains a legal guarding position and how a player sets a screen. As JR said in a post above, you are confusing guarding principles with screening principles. AND, yes defensive players can set screens. Read the definition of screening.

Remember, if a player has legally gained a position on the court, he can stand there the entire game. And if he never moves from that position the entire game and an opponent runs into him, guess what, his opponent has committed a foul against him.

MTD, Sr.

just another ref Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
... it is impossible for him to be responsible for contact. He could still commit a T for unsportsmanlike vocabulary.
Where does this term appear in the books?



Quote:
I'm just trying to be consistently obnoxious!
It's working.

rainmaker Sat Dec 01, 2007 05:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
kbilla:

Please read completely the two sections in Rule 4 that cover guarding and screening. Then tell me what what are the differences between guarding and screening, especially how a player obtains a legal guarding position and how a player sets a screen. As JR said in a post above, you are confusing guarding principles with screening principles. AND, yes defensive players can set screens. Read the definition of screening.

MTD, Sr.
And remember that the defender might be doing something that is neither screening nor guarding.


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