Head Coache's Rule
 

10-5-1 By state association adoption, the head coach may be off the bench in front of his/her seat within the confines of the designated coaching box, as in 1-13-2 , for the purpose of coaching his/her team.

I went to observed a varsity tournament at a local high school. They have an annual tournament for their conference. Well, a coach of the opposing team was off the bench every time the other team went to shoot free-throws below the free throw line (first half). I found this odd because if a player was in the same location and he/she is not in the lane spaces or behind the arc it is a violation (disconcertion).

So, after the game I asked the officials why they allowed the coach to be in that location in the first half. The answer they gave me pissed me off. As long as, the coach is coaching and not bothering them directly they did not have a problem with it.

So, I brought up the disconcetion situation and they stated I was being an OOO and that I would have a hard time advancing worrying about the location of a coach when he/she is just coaching.


Coaches do rate officials in Missouri.:mad:

Thoughts?

Listen to the other officials on this one. Just standing in the coach's box isn't going to be disconcertion. And, if a player is there (well, on the court), then it is a violation, but it's still not disconcertion.

Bob, I got that the problem is the coach is completely out of the box.

You have just realized one of the biggest dilemas that officials face, especially when they are rated by coaches (which they are in IL as well). To me the bottom line is that a coach out of the box, then 1) If they are out and yelling at me and/or my partners it is a no brainer or 2) if they are coaching they are gaining an unfair advantage if the opposing coach is following the rules. That being said, I am not "looking" over there, but if I see a coach out of the box once, I might ignore it. If I see them out of the box again I will probably warn them. After that if you have warned them, you cannot warn them again or you lose all credibility, you have to follow through with the tech. That being said there is a difference between "being out of the box" and taking a step out for a second and then returning, you really have to use judgement in this area. As far as the comments from those officials, to me that is a crock...you may get a bad rating from a coach, but if this coach is one who would give you a bad rating based on you enforcing this rule, then they probably would have found something else to nail you on anyway...and I have never had an assignor give any negative feedback for issuing a tech....

First, yes, it would be a violation for a player to stand there, but it would not be disconcertion. They just can't stand there. It would be like lining up in the wrong lane space. They're just not allowed to be there.

Second, many officials take this attitude. "As long as they're coaching, I don't care where they stand". Unfortunately, it's our job to care about it. (In fact, it's a huge POE in college this year.) So after the first free throw, I would quietly walk to the coach and remind him to back off the court and find the box.

Third, I don't think you'd be OOO by enforcing it, but what would you do about it, other than what I mentioned above? You can't call it a free throw violation. All you could do is T up the coach. And I would not do that without talking to him first.

This is very easy to handle with a 3-person crew, because the Trail official is right there. But in 2-person (except in Texas, I guess), the Trail is opposite the table and it's harder to communicate with the coach quietly.

Personally, I'm with you about enforcing the coaching box, but I've learned that most officials are not on board with that. They just don't have the desire to make the effort. So yes what you heard is a popular excuse. The NCAA has made it a huge point this year that that attitude is unacceptable. We'll see how long this remains the case and if it affects assignments and NCAA/NIT selections.

That said, I think that you need to specify how big the box is in your state. In mine it's 14 feet, which does extend below the FT line. It starts at the 28 foot line and goes towards the end line, so the coach can be down to about the second marked lane space below the FT line PER THE RULE. Now if you have a six foot box, then it's halfway between the FT line and the top of the FT semicircle.

I've never felt that enforcing the rules and cleaning up the game is OOO, but there are many who do and many who have stated so on this forum.

[QUOTE=Nevadaref] Now if you have a six foot box, then it's halfway between the FT line and the top of the FT semicircle.

This one was six.

[QUOTE=Scrapper1]First, yes, it would be a violation for a player to stand there, but it would not be disconcertion. They just can't stand there. It would be like lining up in the wrong lane space. They're just not allowed to be there.

Right violation!

I'll agree mostly except to say it's not clear to me the coach was on the floor. Even if he was ti's not entirely so difficult to shoo the coach off the court in 2 man, just yell across "hey coach!" and indicate by gesture to move back. Or get your partner's attention and have him do it. And unless he was REALLY out on the floor and not just standing there minding his own business I would find it OOO to say anything about it.

Dan, the coach was not on the floor; on the sideline out of the designated box only when the opposing team is shooting free-throw.

Coach’s ratings in Illinois are not even 1/8 of the Power rating (the percentile is combined with Certified officials). So I would hope that anyone from Illinois is not worried about what a coach might rate you. Also the ratings only apply to varsity contests of a particular gender. Ratings do not apply at lower level games and do not mean because you have higher ratings than other officials you will get post season assignments. So if an issue like this needs to be addressed (which I do not see anything different needing to be done other than the officials way officials on the court handled it in this particular game) if ratings are your motivation, then you are not really aware of how our system works. In other states the coach's ratings might mean everything. Here in Illinois they do not.

Peace

Yup, I was still typing while others were posting. After I finished my post, I read the other ones, and realized that I assumed too much. My bad.

So what makes up the other approx 7/8? Is it stuff that all officials may score similarly on or get the maximum score from? If so, then isn't this last bit what separates the officials and makes the difference in the selections for postseason?

Of course, I don't know that specifics of Illinois and really don't want to, but the logic of this argument would apply to anywhere that used coaches' ratings as a part of the officials ranking. One must examine closely how much of an impact it has, even if it is only a small percentage. That small number could be the difference maker.

I did not realize that it was that low, but I could care less regardless...you do what you have to do and let the rest shake out..

Illinois has a 40 point rating system with only 5 points dedicated to ratings from coaches (combined with certified official's ratings). For example I bet in the past week I will receive more certified official's ratings than coach's ratings. Things like rankings, Top 15 percentile and test scores make up that rating. And if you are worried about one coach that you might not see again for 2 years then in my opinion you are worrying too much. I received about 70 ratings last year in Boy's basketball alone. The percentile involves a 2 year cycle so you can add about another 50 ratings the year before. And our rating system is based on the more ratings you get. For example if an official gets 5, number 1 ratings for the year is not going to be as well off as someone gets 50 number 3 ratings. So I want the coaches to rate me even if they give me what is called a bad rating.

It might not apply if coaches ratings are the only area that get you post season assignments. In some areas the coaches pick the officials for the post season assignments (Texas Football is an example of this). My point was our system is not as ridged based on what a coach rates you. Making calls because a coach might be upset (around here) should not even be a factor in how you call the game or interact with a coach.

Peace

For those other than Rut who may wish to grasp my point consider the following:
8 items make up an officials rating each is equal.
1. test score
2. appearance/fitness
3. mechanics
4. camp attendence
5. years of service
6. number of games worked
7. turnbacks (the fewer the better here)
8. peer rating/coach rating

Now let's further say that each official gets a score from 1-5 with five being the highest in each category and that there is a cut-off for what is need to earn a five. Say 90%+ on the exam, yes or no did you attend the 3-man camp that the assn puts on, 10+ years with the assn, 50+ HS V games worked during the year, turnback zero games, etc. So a number of officials max out the first seven categories and have a score of 35. Now let's pick a number of officals that do this--25, but the assn can only send 15 to the regional and state games, so they are going to send the top 15 by rating score. It follows that how the officials score in the final category (peer/coach rating) is the determining factor.

That is wonderful, but I was not trying to answer a question for all people. I was addressing only Illinois because it was specifically referenced.

Peace

And I specifically wrote "those other than Rut", so I clearly wasn't addressing you. So why are you responding? :confused:

Oh yeah, the reading thing...:rolleyes:

Enforcing the rules and cleaning up the game is not and never has had anything to do with being an OOO. An official that imposes his very own <b>personal</b>, stricter than <b>normal</b> criteria, when officiating a game is an OOO.

You, sir, are the perfect storm of OOOism.

Nevada,

I was not talking to you in the first place. So what I had to say was not about what you think of the ratings system. So you should not even have referenced me and my point. ;)

I will also agree with JR, you are an OOO at the top of the list. Keep quoting rules and let the real knowledgeable officials reference philosophies and how to really officiate a game.

Peace

Ugh
 

The real problem this year, as I see it in Illinois, is that we are supposed to T up the coach with no warning when he is out of the box. I have not seen it happen yet. Anyone else?

Actually that is not true. The IHSA made a big deal out of if about 2 years ago and then they backed off of that strict interpretation. Kurt and Beth said that they need to have officials concentrating on floor and not be so quick to only T a coach because they were out of the box.

Peace

There used to be a very annoying Varsity assistant coach in my league. Every time an opposing player would shoot a freethrow, he would go all the way down to the end of his bench (so he would be within peripheral sight of the FT shooter) and remind his players of everything they would possibly need to know at the the top of his lungs while waving his arms around pointing out different random things. "TOM, BOX OUT, BIG STEP, BOX OUT!! MIKE, YOU GOT SHOOTER!! FRED, WATCH YOUR FEET, DON'T CROSS THE LINE!!! BOX OUT BOX OUT BOX OUT!!!" If the player took 3 seconds to shoot it, he would yell and wave his arms for 3 seconds. If the shooter took 9 seconds to shoot, he would yell and wave for 9 seconds.

During a game a few years ago, the FT shooter actually bounced the ball back to the official and asked (loudly) "can you please tell him to shut the hell up?!?"

How would you guys handle this situation? warn the coach? T the coach? T the shooter? FT violation on the shooter? I just remember laughing and spilling nacho cheese on my scouting pad.

Well, then, my interpreter said something very different than your interpreter. It may or may not be true, but that is what we were told at our meeting.

I do not know what it has to do with "My Interpreter." The person that made the comments was the sport's administrators of one of the gender's and he referenced the other sport's administrator. Also the Head Clinician of the State and Head Rules Interpreter made similar statements.

Now keep in mind, officials were being emailed from higher ups when observed by IHSA administrators when they did not follow this procedure about 2 years ago when officials did not enforce this strict policy for the coaching box. Ever since I heard the "back off" comments, I have not heard a single person get similar contact or be condemned for a lack of enforcement. I think the IHSA realized that such a strict enforcement was not practical. It does not mean that they want coaches all over the court. I just think they realize we can handle it without the only option giving Ts all the time.

Peace

I got the same interpretation as Rut in the rules meeting I attended.

Well if he is a varsity assistant and he is off the bench, that is real easy I would tech him right away! Only the head coach can be off the bench....if it was the head coach doing something like this and it was obvious to me that he was doing it only to distract the shooter, I would instruct him to stop...you can't commit an unsporting act regardless of where you are on the floor, the coaches box doesn't protect him in this case. Granted it would require extreme judgement, but if it was that obvious, yeah I would do something about it...

I've used the "let's be sure everybody knows what to do before the shooter gets the ball" line while administering the FT (this was with players, not with coaches).

And, I T'd a coach last night for being out of the box, and I also T'd one two years ago (iirc). (In both cases it was a combination of actions and location that did the trick -- the action in the box, or just being out of the box would have been handled differently).

Sounds like classic disconcertion to me.

Then leave him alone.

Gotta love an "adult" who decides he needs to disconcert a 17 year-old kid....not surprising though, I did a 6th grade tournament earlier this year in a TINY gym where the benches are actually on one end of the floor directly under one basket. There was one coach who actually started yelling "MAKE HIM GO LEFT, HE HAS NO LEFT, NO LEFT! YOU'RE IN HIS HEAD" probably 10 feet away from this poor sixth grader who obviously didn't have a left b/c he got the ball stolen I don't know how many times....I didn't have to do anything but give him "the look", he understood...it never ceases to amaze me though the depths to which some coaches will stoop. That's why I'm glad I will have been officiating for so long before I ever attempt to coach my own son, I've seen how bad it looks from the other side..

You whacked somebody? Are you the Bob Jenkins I know? :D

I haven't yet, but that's mainly because I don't have a game for another 2 weeks. Self-imposed extended break between seasons, for me.

I would hold my delayed violation signal, and if the free throw is missed I would award another free throw. The rule says NO opponent of the free thrower shall disconcert the shooter.

If I'm the R on a game, I'll give the coach(es) the benefit of the entire sideline from 28' to baseline with a provisio that the coach coach his/her player(s) and not use this area to instruct us how to officiate the game or be abusive. If he/she breaks my "rule" then he/she is relegated to either the 14' of coaching box (after the first and only warning) or T (if warranted). I know it's against both national and state policy.

Not sure if I agree with that interpretation...are you holding the coach to the other free throw lane restrictions as well? They are already allowed below free throw line extended (depending on the size of the box), how do you square allowing that "infraction" and penalizing another? I believe "opponent" in this case is referring to another player...To me this would fall more under an unsporting act, but that is JHMO....

If I'm not letting the bench players disconcert, then I'm letting the coach either. I think I rather get my point across with the violation and additional free throw, rather then giving an unsporting technical. I'm definitely not applying a "coaches box" rule against him when we know the coaching box can and often does fall below the free throw line extended.

A coach / the bench can "disconcert." Whether that happend in the OP or not, I don't know. ANd, it can often, and should often, be addressed before it gets to the point of having the violation.

Can you please provide a reference for that? I just have a hard time applying a rule like that to a coach...agree with you that there are other ways to deal with it, and it would never get to that point, but as a fundamental premise, where else do you apply an "in game" rule to a coach? Maybe there are some, but I can't think of any off hand...

Agree with you that it may be the best way to deal with it, but I don't see a rule allowing us to make this call..I understand that you are applying the disconcertion rule to the coach, but as I mentioned in my last post, where else do we apply "in game" rules to coaches? Personally and without any other rule evidence to the contrary, I would warn a coach once and if it continued it would be a tech from there...been wrong before though!;)

9.3.c. No opponent shall disconcert the free thrower. I'm defining opponent as all opponents, since it doesn't specifically say opponents on the playing court.

There should be "Definitions" section in the rule book. :D

When I say all, I'm referring to bench personnel as well.

The NFHS issued a POE in the 2001-02 rulebook clarifying that disconcertion applies to <b>all</b> opponents, including the opponent's bench and everyone on the bench. That POE also clarified that if the disconcertion was persistent or deemed unsporting, an official could penalize the act not only as a delayed FT violation but with a technical foul in addition also.

Interesting, thanks...

Are there other rules that you purposely set aside when you are the R on a game? Do you tell the captains that they may pivot following a jumpstop (from 1 to 2) as long as they don't complain to the officials?
Do you let inbounders have seven seconds to release the throw-in pass as long as they don't complain to the officials?

Why not just expand the regulations for everyone? Give people a few extra steps on and off the court and a few extra seconds too. :rolleyes:

Interesting you say that. Last year I had a notoriously mis-behaved coach (he was fired at end of season) earn a T for that. After arguing a foul call, he was squatting in front of his seat (1st Half so FTs by opponent are in front of him) while we were administering the FTs. I was T (2-person), so I had him in my line of sight. He waited until the shooter started his shooting motion and then he slapped the floor real hard and yelled BOX OUT. I wacked him for unsporting behavior. When he asked me what the T was for, I said "unsporting behavior". He asked "what for?". I told him to ask his AD (who is a licensed basketball official). The AD told me a couple of weeks later that that was a great call.

I had him 6 times in two seasons and he had earned 5 Ts in that time, but the other 4 Ts were always by my partner.

The AD was right.

We had an issue here the other night with some similarities to this post, and I'd like to solicit some opinions. (BTW I did NOT work this game, so fire away.)
Player due to attempt the 2nd of 3 FTs with his team leading by 1 and only two seconds left. Teenage spectator from the home crowd gets up, leaves the stands, and walks out the open doors directly under the basket at that end of the gym. The Lead administers the ball to the free-thrower. He has it for a few seconds when the spectator who is now just outside the doorframe bends over and sticks his @ss back towards the shooter. :eek:
The officials allowed the FT to continue and the shooter missed.

Wow. Very interesting. Funny in fact, if you're not involved.

That said, if it's how I'm imagining it I'm probably going to stop the free throw and ask game management to deal with the situation, including restricting fans from leaving through doors on the end line while the game is proceeding on that end...