Flopping
 

So my season starts out with you basic vanilla JV tourney. So we about 30 seconds into my first game and this kid does a Vlade Divac on the court, and not a very good one at that. First chance I get I talk to him about it and he's good to go. one other kid tried it and I told him what the penalty was.

So has anyone really issued a T for "faking being fouled" ? I asked other refs this weekend and they pretty much looked at me like I had lobsters coming out of my head. The whole flopping thing annoys me but I really don't want to be the first one in the history of basketball to throw a T for flopping.

So what do you think ?

Call a block and send him to the free throw line. If they don't get the message you'll soon be rid of the troublemakers.

Once, in a 5th grade YMCA game. The kid flops as the dribbler approaches him. They were barely close enough for a closely guarded count. I warned him, and his coach.

Next time down the court, he does it again. I didn't think twice about it, I just called it.

But, the kids were young, I'd just warned him, and it was egregious.

Yes, I've been handcuffed into calling it. A few years ago I had a sophmore double header, 2 man. In the 1st quarter with about 2 minutes left in the half, the point guard for the visiting team takes a dive. I made a mental note of the players number and was going to talk to the coach quickly at the break. 4 possessions or so later, the same kid does the same thing again, and my partner, for some reason unknown to me, decides to stop the game and have the scorer record a formal warning in the book (not sure where he got that). I did have a quick conversation with the coach as to what happened and told him I was seeing the kid do the same thing. At the half I inform my partner that there was not a formal warning for that. So, of course as life goes, early in the 3rd quarter, I'm going to lead on a break, the kid in question has an offensive player get a step away from him on the drive, falls backwards and makes a noise. Since everyone in the gym knew the warning was there (although it should have been handled quietly) I didn't even hesitate. I threw the T. The visiting coach jumps up as I go to the bench. I just put up the "stop sign" and said firmly, "that is the exact play we talked about before you left the court and the exact player." He sat down and we moved on. So, yes, it has been called, although it can be avoided in most cases.

Why not enforce the penalty the book calls for. The "flopper" is CHEATING. The faking of a foul to get an opponent penalized is "unsporting" behavior. I have called it before and the flopping stopped for the rest of the game.

What is the downside? The team that has been cheated against get 2 FT and the ball. The coach yells at his player something like, "stay on your feet, play defense".

Flopping is defined as <b>faking</b> being fouled. How can you call a block when there's <b>no</b> illegal contact?:confused:

It's never a good idea to make up your own rules imo. If an official has a concern about a player flopping, then the rules already allow that official to stop the practice. If you want to warn first, fine. If it bothers you or if they ignore your warning, then simply issue the technical foul. If you don't want to use the rules that we have though, don't get into making things up.

I know there's no contact. Hey I just had "bad judgement" on that play. What's the flopper's Coach going to say? He flopped?

Sure. He'll say you made a blocking call when there was no contact. That's clearly against the rules. You screwed up.

Now, what do you do?

Thank him?

<font color>:D</font color>

I agree here, it is faking being fouled, but I have never seen anyone in our area call a "T" for it.

Yup. And if he does say that his player flopped, what are you gonna do now?

Do whatever you want to, Gordon. All I can do is give you my opinion. And my opinion is that you shouldn't try to blow smoke up anybody's azz when you're officiating, be they player or coach. Believe it or not, there are some very knowledgeable coaches out there.

LOL!!:D

I'm not getting into a P***ing contest with you. Incidentally knoweledgeable Coaches get it. If not. Oh well.

So, you advocate lying to a coach, then tossing him when he calls you on it?

I have to say that officials in my area are very reluctant to call a T, on this or anything else. I think that attitude toward technical fouls drives people to think of workarounds, such as the one gordon30307 has devised. (I don't presume to say what motivated him.)

I think that it's a bad habit to come up with workarounds when the rules specifically address a problem, and that we should diagnose what attitude (disliking T's, for example) lies behind the desire for a workaround.

First thing I say. Sorry Coach you may be right, or from your angle you may be right, I saw it different, or something like that. If he persists. Coach are you accusing me of cheating? If he's stupid enough to say yes. See ya!!!!!!!!

I'm not getting into a p***ing contest with you either. What works for you works for you. Lots of different ways to handle situations. Have a good day.

So, you advocate lying to the coach?

Look, if you're going to call it that way, be honest with the coach about it when he questions you.

"Coach, you're right. He flopped. By rule, it's a Technical foul. I thought I'd save your player a T, but if you want me to do it by the book, I can oblige."

Since you admitted you saw the flop, this is obviously lying to the coach. If the coach saw the same thing, he also knows you're lying. If I was your partner, you would've lost your credibility in my eyes.

Again, you lie to him, he calls you on it, and you toss him?

This is not meant to be a p!ssing contest, unless you want to make it that. You are right that there are many ways to handle situations; I'm curious as to why you picked this particular way, as opposed to warning the player first? How about mentioning to the coach that you saw the player flop? If it's an obvious flop, why wouldn't you call the T?

Why call the T. I agree as per rule you're right if you do. If I call the block the kids still being "punished if you will". I don't have to deal with all of the emotions that occur when a T is called. Incidently last year I called 26 Tees of all sorts bookkeping etc. Only one ejection an AAU Coach. Lest you think I don't. I did about 110 games of various sorts. No t's in Varsity Games. Most were in AAU.

I can't see myself calling a T for flopping (Not saying I never will) I will either pass on it, call a block, tell the kid to stop etc.

Hey you should be off ball when I made that call. LOL:D

Coaches think we lie to them even when we are not lying to them. At some point, who gives a rat's azz if a coach thinks were are lying. I am not talking about this situation, but I am not going to admit something to a coach because my partner obviously screwed up. I do not care about my credibility about a coach on the basis of one call. I am starting to channel Dan's mind or spirit or something, but why are we so concerned with what a coach thinks and in a year they will not even be at that job anymore?

Peace

Jeff channelling Dan?? That's a picture I'm gonna have to take to counselling to get rid of....

Jeff, I'm not talking about simply what a coach thinks. I'm also not talking about going over to the coach and telling them my partner screwed up. I'm talking about the credibility of an official that outright lies about their call. I'm talking about this situation. If one of my partners lies about a call, our whole crew has been affected. If I know he made up this call, how do I know he doesn't make up other calls? Should I start watching his area? How do I know he got the proper shooter for the FT, and not just picked out any player because he wasn't watching? Damn! I just missed a call because I'm too busy thinking about these things. The overall perfomance of the crew, and the trust level between crew members has come down a couple of notches.

In almost 20 years of officiating, I've only called this T twice, and one of those was in wreck league. Flopping doesn't happen often, but there are other alternatives to handling this situation. There's quietly reminding the player they're not eligible for Oscar consideration. There's mentioning the play to the coach. There's calling a block if the offensive player falls over the flopper. I'm not sure lying about a call, or making up a call, should be one of the alternatives.

I've generally found that, at higher levels (JV and up), coaches know what's going on. If you have a no call and their defender is lying on the floor, he (or she) knows what happened. I've had more than one coach yell at their player here, and when I've been questioned I just say he fell backwards before any contact was made. Works (almost) every time.

Hey M&M I got a question for you. Your partner misses an obvious foul/travel/double dribble etc. You see it and you don't blow the whistle. The Coach says "you saw that you were looking right at it I know you saw it. Do you throw your partner under the bus. Or do you say I was off ball, my partner had a better look etc., etc. etc. I would like to think you wouldn't throw your partner under the bus. :eek:

The best response is....wait for it....

....thank you.

If it was outside my area, of course my partner probably had the better look.

I still have a question for you: what is your justification for making up a call (calling a block with no contact), and then lying to the coach about the call ("I saw it different")?

"Coach, my partner had a better look at that than I did, you'll have to ask her."
No lie, and no one looks up at the undercarriage of a bus. Integrity and loyalty.

Still sipping diet pop, I see.

Hey, I'm trying to be empathetic. You're not helping me with your ridicule.

Do I sound irritable?

Sorry, I misspelled "Thank you."

I understand. It must be that time of month.

Oops, now I've done it...

If I'm not mistaken I think Mark Twain said something like this. There's lies and their's damned lies. It was just a lie.

Have a good day.:D

98% of us think you're making that up. :D

How is it a lie to tell the coach your partner had a better look at it? :confused: I know what <B>I</B> saw, but I don't know what <B>my partner</B> saw, especially if it's in their area.

You also haven't answered my questions yet.

FWIW, if you had that good a look at it, you may as well just own up to the coach and say you missed it.

I'll answer it like this. I don't lie to my friends (partners) if you do it's a damned lie. Coaches aren't my friends so it's a lie.

If you tell me in 20 years of reffing you never ever, ever, ever:D lied to a Coach that's a damned lie.

Touche'

Why get the coach involved? Just look at the guy who flopped and say thank you.

I personally do not care whether a coach thinks I lied to them or not. I do not worry about what coaches ultimately think. They already think you lie and cheat, so what is another conversation going to do to change that opinion?

And if my partner sees something and I disagree with it, you damn right I am going to lie to save my partner. My partner is my friend, not a coach. Coaches will sell you out all the time even when you are completely honest with them.

Stop worrying about credibility that you have with coaches. If you lose credibility just because of one conversation the coach is worry too much about you and not their team.

JMO.

Peace

You're making a big assumption that I know for sure my partner blew a call. I may have a pretty good idea, but I'm not going to lie to a coach. I may tell the coach I'll try to get an explanation from my partner at the next opportunity. I may, in rare instances, go to my partner and give them information that might help them change their call.

I've done plenty of things wrong in 20 years. And I'll probably do a few things wrong before this week is done. I'm constantly working on trying to get things right.

But I guess I'm not following your logic. What does that have to do with <B>purposely</B> calling a foul with no contact? I'm waiting to hear your justification for doing that, and then lying to the coach about why you made that particular call.

I'm talking about the credibility of your partner. If you're doing the right thing, who cares what other people think? But can you work with, and trust, a partner who makes up calls?

I am going to trust them for that night. After that is a different situation. But that has nothing to do with what we are talking about right now.

Look on most nights I am working with different people on a regular basis. I do not always work with the same guys as you might be able to. And because of that I can work with people of all levels. I am not going to sweat the small stuff that often, because if I did I would really drive myself crazy.

Peace

I've never "T'd" a player for flopping... however this is the way I deal with it...

1. I'll tell the player in no uncretain terms to get up

2a. Any marginal contact by this player (by flopping); most likely will be a foul so that...

2b. At the 1st chance to educate the player as to the penalty for flopping.

3. If the behavior continues at this point, when the oppurtunity allows itself I'll go to the coach and say "Coach, I need your help with number ___, In my view he (or she) is continuing to fake being fouled (flopping) after I have warned them, I would like you to address this before I have to. Thank you"

4. By this point, it should be dealt with however there is no question if there is a "T" for flopping, it will not be a surprise to anyone...

My 2 cents

So first you warn the player, then you really warn him, then you warn his coach that you warned him. Do you have any rules backup for all those warnings?

Flopping is an unsporting T. Why not avail yourself of the rulebook penalty?

It's from the UN School of officiating.