T or let it ride?
 

I had a T today that I'd like some feedback on....didn't really want to call it cause I'd not had much issue with the coach but but I felt the he put me in a bad position and basically challenged me....

First half team fouls were 9-4.....Early in the second half with team fouls 2-2.... ...Coach of team that had 9 in the first is barking about a no call I had at the other end on a rebound by his C.......As I set up at T to put the ball in, in front of his bench due to a tipped pass OOB... he asks me "Are you going to call any fouls on them today?"...Looking up at the scoreboard and seeing it's 2-2..I pointed to it...His response was "What does that mean?"...I said "Coach, it means we've been calling fouls on both ends of the floor....sit down and coach your team from the bench the rest of the game.

His response was "I'm NOT sitting down unless you T me up"

In 7 years, I don't think I've ever had a coach say that to me....They've certainly earned Ts from me...It's kind of along the lines of threating a coach with a T which I would never do but that's how I felt when he said it...Almost as if to see if I was willing to exercise my option to T....

SO what do you think...

JMO...don't tell a Coach to "sit down and coach your team from the bench the rest of the game."

....don't tell a Coach to "shut up"...don't get excited, stay calm...etc.

You can manage a game better than that...right?

I would have obliged him with a flagrant. Buh-bye.

I think you need to work on your communication with coaches.

You lowered yourself to his level, he felt challenged and you caused the T.

Why did you tell him to sit down? Is it in the rules that coaches have to stay seated? If he has the right to stand, you can't force him to sit unless he earns his seatbelt. But I'm guessing there's more to the story, and you had a good reason to say this.

This was 8th grade girls Holiday Tourney (travel and AAU teams I believe...we had some teams down from Iowa)....

Playing under IHSAA and NFHS rules, so technically, he should only be up to instruct/coach his players...Which for the most part he was doing, that's why I said in my OP that I didn't really want to go this route....we were not having much issues but there were some calls both sides were questioning and wanting to give me their understanding of the play/rule....

There was one play on a defensive rebound in the first half where his player got the rebound and her momentum carried her into two other players on the other team and knocked them down like bowling pins...During a TO he tells me "I can't penalize her cause she's tall"...I explained what I saw and he told me "Once she secures the ball, there should be no foul"....I replied to him that "Coach, when she secures the rebound in the air, she's gotta stay in control when she comes to the ground and can't crash into the other team knocking them to the floor...that's a foul"....

Like I said...nothing really out of control from this coach but I felt his comment about us not calling any fouls on them was along the lines of "5 on 7 out there"...which would earn a T from me....so I told him to have a seat...Perhaps I should have just said that and walked away or gave him the "stop sign"...

Seems to be a bad use of preventive officiating - too much conversing. First rule, never answer a comment ("You can't penalize her for being tall"). Second rule, never answer a "leading" question ("Are you going to...?") unless it's with "I hear you coach". Then if I hear more I usually say, "That's enough coach." Then after that it's a T with no emotion. This changes if the comments or questions are unsportsmanlike.

Had you gotten to the point of, "I've heard enough, coach."?

This doesn't sound the same to me. "5 on 7" is a direct accusation. "Aren't you gonna call a foul on them?" is more of a complaint. IMO

.. If the stop sign is used in your area, that might have been good, or walk him over to the bench and then hustle back to inbound the ball.

I always have trouble being appropriate with coaches, and it's something I keep having to work on. But a couple things I'm starting to get the hang of 1) don't do or say anything that could conceivably be construed as baiting. And don't rise to any bait he may throw out. 2) Don't ever tell them what to do. Don't ever tell them what you're going to do. Just do it when it's necessary. 3) In looking back, if the T made the game better (coach quit nagging, went back to coaching, is what often happens) it was a good T at the right time. If you're not sure you should have, you might have whacked too soon. 4) Use it as a learning experience. Don't sweat it. Don't lose sleep over it (I'm still working on this one).

Now you're talking! Good job! ;)

Oh...and speaking of talking...you are doing WAY to much with the Coach, IMO.
Just keep it brief...and don't feel like you have to explain every call.

i.e...when the big girl knocked down the others...simply say something like, "Coach, she displaced them." Enough said.

Pointing to the score board is just asking for trouble and baiting him as well. As officials, we dont want to seem like we are treating the coach like a child i.e. telling him to sit down. Just acknowledge him or give him a warning....

Especially at the 8th grade level. Coaches generally don't understand all the details, even if they do have the basics down. It's hard not to want to explain. Believe me I know. I"ve done A LOT of 8th grade in my years. You need to work on developing a few standard responses such as "Legal guarding position" and as RD says above, "displacement, coach".

Another response I use a lot when a coach is nagging is a very dispassionate "Thank you". If the coach asks a direct question, use a standard response. Otherwise say, "Thank you" and nod. This means, "I heard you". And that's all it means. "She's moving!!" "Thank you" "That's a foul!!" "Thank you" "They're all over us!!" "Thank you". You are acknowledging that the coach exists and that he's concerned about what's happening, and that's all. It really, really helps.

I'm gonna try to use this one - so Rain, "Thank you." ;)

I learned first hand from two evaluators this weekend a Stop Sign is NOT to be used in our league - I'll file that one too!

Really simple, address the behavior, not what was said.

He said something out of line, don't try to correct him about what he said being wrong, correct that what he said was inappropriate.

Coach: blah, blah, blah

You: Coach this is the only response you will get from comments like that...it stops, I've heard enough

Then walk away.

I don't like it.

If I'm a coach and I hear thank you like that I'm going to take it as sarcastic and you being a jerk.

I can easily see it escalate the situation.

Like what? I suppose it depends on the tone of voice. I've worked hard at keeping the sarcasm out. It's worked for me. Worked very well. *shrug*

I think that you made two mistakes.
1. You should never officiate according to the scoreboard. Fouls, violations, or otherwise. Your pointing to the scoreboard was wrong. If the coach had pointed to the scoreboard in the first half when the fouls were 4-9 against him as evidence that you were calling more on one end, would you have been happy or felt that his action was appropriate? Your attempted use of the board as evidence wasn't either. :(

2. The coach was absolutely correct that you have no right to instruct him to sit down if he is in a state that utilizes the coaching box (other than Kansas :D ). His response to you was completely right and you should have simply said, "You're right, coach. I apologize," and then quickly inbounded the ball. The coach's complaining about the noncall on the other end wasn't good, but you certainly didn't manage the situation well. This should never have escalated to a T. JMO.

I think that you should have issued a warning on his first comment highlighted above. That warning is two words--"That's enough." He questioned your integrity by intimating that you're favoring the other team. If he comments further, simply give him the technical foul.

Just way too much talking on your part.

Doesn't matter how you say it.

The context of the situation doesn't call for a thank you so...

They either think you are nuts or they think you are being a smart arse.

Either way it isn't the best way to handle a problem coach, IMO.

I'm with BZ on this one. You will eventually run into a coach that misconstrues your intent and thinks that you're just being a smart-azz. Jmo, but a simple nod of the head to acknowledge that you heard the coach is sufficient. The coach is just trying to work you anyway.

Thank you.

1. The coach asked a question that many coaches will ask. Everything went down hill when you pointed to the scoreboard.
2. You shouldn't have told the coach to sit down period.
3. A coach is smart enough to realize that "Thank you" isn't an answer for everything he/she is asking/saying and will eventually think the official is being a jerk.
4. When a coach is upset there is almost nothing an official can say that will be good enough. Keep is short, to the point and move on.

Whatever...:rolleyes:

I like the fact that others basically told you the same thing, but didn't get the same response.
It is what it is and you really can't say for certain that your method will work all the time. It doesn't read well either and comes off like the official would be a smart...

I didn't say for certain that my "method" would "work" all the time. I said that it's a tool to use sometimes under certain circumstances. I don't understand why that's such a problem.

I can see JR's point that there might be a coach sometime that would misconstrue what I'm trying to convey. But that hasn't happend to me yet. It's been just the right "response" to certain coach comments at certain times, and has helped the game move forward with the coach coaching and the refs reffing.

Why would I not recommend that tool for someone else to have in the kit?

Because, most likely at some point, a coach may misinterpret the meaning and it may lead to bigger problems. Just because "tools" work some of the time doesn't mean they necessarily need to be in the kit.

Personally, I think you baited the coach into getting a T. If he has the right to stand, you cannot give him the seatbelt without the T. Just my HO.

And why would you get defensive when others point out the potential flaw of it and recommend not adding it?

Simply put it's confusing. Now that may distract the coach by having them thinking...what did she say?...and that may have worked to your advantage, but the likelihood of it making a situation worse is there.

Why use something out of place and simple, when a direct and appropriate nod and, "I heard you," "I'll watch for it," or a, "That's enough," is just as simple and lacks any possible confusion?

Why would I get defensive when I get jumped on for something that I never said? Can't imagine...

Yes, there is the likelihood of making the situation worse. There is always that likelihood. "I heard you" and "I'll watch for it" and "That's enough" also have that likelihood.

In human communication, nothing lacks any possible confusion. THere's always a possibility of confusion. Sort of like how you didn't hear what I was saying about "Thank you" and I don't like being called crazy.

Was this played in Kansas?
This is not NFHS rule, and I've not heard that it's the Indiana rule either.

An amusing story about "Thank you, coach."

I soccer ref buddy of mine is from England. The mentality over there regarding what is acceptable dissent is vastly different from the US. They really tolerate much more than we do. His normal response is simply, "Thank you, coach." He actually says that over and over and over. I would estimate that he says it in response to about 95% of the complaints from coaches or players.

Usually the person complaining realizes that he isn't going to get anything else out of him and so just stops complaining, but a couple of years ago one coach actually asked him, "Why do you keep saying that? I want a real answer!" His response was absolutely unbelievable!!!
He turned around and without missing a beat actually said, "Because they won't let me say, 'Shut the *#(& up, coach.' " :eek:

Too funny.

You described the exact way you use it. You use it in response to comments where thank you is never used in "normal" human communication. To equate the possibility of that being confused to the possible confusion of a reply that is direct and explicitly addresses the comment is beyond laughable.

So any inexperienced officials out there listen up:

Simple, direct and to the point is better than vague, confusing and in no way related to what is being said by the coach.

Well, just for the record, I don't use it anywhere near that often. I use it two or three times a week, with about 5 games per week.

See, bz? I'm not the only one that finds this useful.

LOL!! Well, that's not my reason, but it's cute.

Funny? Okay, I'm glad you find some entertainment out of it, although that wasn't my intention.

Really? You have some kind of monitor to keep track of all "normal" human communication?? I'd like to have one too!

And may I add to those inexperienced officials:

You have to decide for yourselves whether or not you want to believe that.

I have done about 200 games a year over the last three years or so from 6th grade girls rec up to the championship of a multi-state boys tournament with a couple of D1 bound players. I use "Thank you" two or three times a week, sometimes more or less, but that's about an average. I have never had any response except for the coach to stop complaining and start coaching again. Occasionally, when I say it a coach will wait until the next stoppage and then ask a more direct question, which I can then address with useful information.

I recommend that in a situation where a coach is complaining, you try it, if you think it won't be incendiary. Sometimes, it's useful instead of repeating "I hear you" over and over. Sometimes it's a way to acknowledge the coach when there's not time to give more. Use no sarcasm or irony. Look the coach in the eye if you can look away from the action.

If it doesn't work for you, don't do it again. I don't think this is a dangerous or useless thing to try. It's another trick in your bag that might help at some point.

Guys - listen to Juulie. She knows what she's talking about. She's the best girl official I've ever worked with. :rolleyes:

I started to feel flattered when I read this, because I know some of the women officials you've worked with but then I realized... woman..girl..woman..girl...

... oh, well...

You need to lower your standards when dealing with us Cretins, Juulie.

Get in a corner and out comes the resume.:rolleyes:

Okay I have one too.

I do between 500 and 700 games a year ranging from youth to adults with current and former NBA players, tournament games where nearly every player on the floor is going to be playing D-1, and state semi and championship games, and this year I was asked to teach the new officials class.

So inexperienced officials by all means choose.

We learn to be better by our mistakes.

Go with thank you and do just that or listen to the advice that I and others gave you and use simple and direct words that make sense and handle problem coaches better.

Yup, you're experienced. Sho' nuf.

You want to make this either/or. Well, that's for you to decide, I guess. I see these as possibilities, but there are a couple of other choices, as well. Such as...

Use "Thank you" when it is a simple and direct way to accomplish something constructive.

Use other phrases or actions (nodding) when they are appropriate.

Continue to evaluate each coach in each game to see how best you can help the game move forward in the best way.

Continue to listen to and watch other refs for other possible ways to handle coaches when they are expressing ideas and emotions.

Actually, for handling problem coaches, there are a lot of different tricks and phrases. "Thank you" rarely works once a coach is a problem, but it can prevent a coach from becoming problematic.

There is no "one size fits all" kind of issue that is going to work all the time no matter what. The only thing I think that was done wrong for sure was the "sit down" comment. Saying "Thank you" can work some times. Sometimes pointing out that we have called fouls can work. And sometimes it will not work.

I have said this before that many ways that coaches respond to us is based on things we will never be able to change. Sometimes it is your size, your race, your gender, your experience and where you live and what HS you once went to. If a coach feels he has a point and he does not respect what you have to say, you can say almost anything and it is not going to automatically work.

Based on what this guy said to me I might have completely ignored him at that point. And if I said anything later to him I might have addressed his behavior and not his question. But that is me and that works for me often because unless a coach knows you from previous games, they are not going to listen to what I say even if what I said was right on.

Dealing with coaches is an art, not a science.

Peace

Thanks for all the responses everybody...

I've had a night to sleep on it and another 5 games today that were great and if given that same scenario I'd have handled it completely different...

Rut, I agree with you when you say "one size will not fit all." But the reality is many officials do not have enough experience to know what to say to coaches. This being the case, I wouldn't suggest anything other than being direct and clear - this only applies to questions not comments. Is that so hard?
I know right off, "Thank you" will not work for me. I make every effort to only call things I have no problem explaining. I don't know where I am on the scale of smooth communicators, but I think I can answer a question concerning one of my calls. If a coach becomes a problem...I have something for that too. :D

So are you actually saying that there is NEVER a time to say "Thank you" to a coach that is being a problem?? You can actually be that definitive about what someone else can use to defuse a tense situation?? Damn, you really are as good as your little resume makes you out to be...

Why not simply say "I don't use that because it doesn't work for me" and let it go at that...trying to tell inexperienced officials that it will never work is a little pompous, imo.

I used thanks on a coach this weekend and it worked just fine...coach says "Hey, 52 is getting pretty physical out there."
"OK, thanks coach."
"Oh, you're seeing it too? OK."

Sweet and to the point and everything worked out just fine and dandy.

Of course they do not have the experience. That is why one size cannot fit all. Also even if you have two different officials with similar experiences and they have different personalities, I am sure the same words coming out of their mouths are not going to work equally with different coaches. This is why you have to work games, watch other officials to figure out your way. Sometimes you have to use some trial and error.

Sometimes I do not even say a word and the look I give tells a story of what I want to get across. That does not always work, but it works well for me.

Peace

Rocky, while that worked for you this weekend, wouldn't you say that answering comments - no matter the answer - could end the wrong way? It has been said many times, by some of the "big dogs", that silence cannot be quoted - answer questions and not comments.

Having said that, your example of using "Thank you" fit what the coach said. It isn't like the coach said, "How can the fouls be 8 to 3?" and you said, "Thank you." While I don't necessarily endorse answering comments, you use is understandable. Saying "Thank you" repeatedly, for questions that don't fit that as an answer, could quickly become an irritant. Without (hopefully) using any absolutes, would you agree?

And I thought debating Rainmaker was funny.:rolleyes:

Try to keep up.

The thank you advice was given with a list of coaches comments she has used it on...none of which were ones where thank you would even remotely make sense.

Your case wasn't close to what she was saying. By qualifying the thanks with an okay, you went from chatter to an actual conversation...much different than the coach saying 52 is getting rough and you run by with, "Thank you." Which would lead to the coach saying, "Well are you going to watch for it? RM than says, "Thank you." Seething now the coach yells, "What are you talking about?" RM says, "Thank you.

Get the picture?

We all use thank you on the court...I say it when a player or coach gets a loose ball and gives it too me...you know when it's an appropriate thing to say.

The only time I ever say "Thank you" to a coach is when he buys foul insurance. Usually, my response to inane coach comments is "I'd answer you coach, but I left my English-Jibberish dictionary at home". :D

And Juulie - if you want a monitor to indicate "normal human communication" just think WWPS (what wouldn't Padgett say). ;)

Try to keep up:

Too funny.

What's really funny is what you quoted PROVED my point.

I'll make it painfully clear for you.

It doesn't matter what her intent is, it's how it will be perceived that matters.

A coach is either going to hear it and go, "What?" At that point you lose credibility because they aren't sure where you are coming from, because it doesn't make any sense.

Or that coach is going to take it as you being a jerk and showing him/her up.

Is either making the situation better?

Even it it doesn't hurt things there are many more sensible things you can do or say.

It's poor advice.

I had a thirty year veteran today and he blew his whistle, stopped play, and told the coach to sit down for the rest of the game. No T, just sit down, and to make matters worse yells out, "this is just a sixth grade game" which set all the parents off.

T 'em up or forget it.

What point was that? :confused:

Why would you <B>not</B> answer a coach's direct question?

How it's perceived when I say it to coaches is that I heard them, and I'm acknowledging what they say. Not agreeing or disagreeing, just acknowledging

You say "going to take it" and "going to hear" but those comments are strictly hypothetical. My real, actual on-the-floor experience with real actual coachs at several levels is that they perceive it the way I intend it.

It isn't non-sensical. I am thanking the coach for giving me information, Coach hears what I say as acknowledgement. How is that nonsense?

You don't like it. That doesn't make it poor advice. I hope you are more open-minded and solution-oriented when you teach your newbies.

And I answer a direct question with a direct answer. I don't use a blanket answer of "Thank you" to any and all coach sayings. I put three in a row in my original recommendation not because that's all I ever say, but to show some different examples. Sheez, I don't just keep throwing back "THank you" no matter what, and dammm the consequences. Is that how you're reading that post?

Actually, go back and read what Juulie said - I highlighted it in red. She also said to answer a a direct question.

Whoops, you're back.

Carry on. :)

Hey, I can always use all the help I can get. I appreciate the support! ALthough, I gotta admit, this one's a lot easier that some I've gotten into. He's clearly just being.... oops, nope. Not gonna go there.

What do you mean <b>"us"</b>?

I'm sure he meant everyone on this forum.

And in the 49 other states and D.C.?

Of course.

Even Kansas/Hell.

Except me, Rita and Karin.

Hey - I resemble that remark! :mad:

I went back to look at Juulie's "Thank you" post. This is how I read it and I'm saying this without inserting a whole bunch of my personal feelings into it. Too much bickering for a Sunday night - a Sunday night away from home for me (the older I get the more I want to say home. Is there a phobia for that?).
I'm understanding this as a somewhat dry response. I find nothing wrong with that.
OK, do you mean standard response or appropriate response? I read that as one response regardless of the question. Here is where I would give an answer to that specific question - my answer to the next question may or may not be the same depending on the question. Also, remember that we cannot continue to give the coach the same answer all night because they don't expect the same situations they are questioning to continue all night. Sort of like admitting to a coach you kicked one. He/she may accept it the first time, but you can't keep kicking them all night.
Again, these are responses to comments which I feel unnecessary. Especially doing two-man, which I assume some newer officials still do largely, there just isn't time for officials to continually listen to and respond to coaches. It becomes a problem and then you must go down a different path.
So if I were to answer these comments. If the same coach continually says things like this all game, it will get old fast. I cannot say what my response would be for sure because it would be a dynamic situation. However, "Thank you" doesn't come to mind.
One of my good friends works in the Pac-10, WAC and Mountain West. When I first got to Las Vegas he was still working high school because there just isn't a lot of ball to work in and around Vegas. He is a natural at communicating with coaches and not because he knows all the "witty" comebacks (I always wonder why people want to hear this and find it strange when they say they might use what someone else said). His communication is natural. It isn't always up and it isn't always down, it is appropriate for whatever the situation needs. He can go from telling a player he is from the hood too in a colorful manner to laughing and joking with Lute Olson. The cherry on top of all this is the fact that being in games with a coach over and over helps. That familiarity makes the communication easier for both the coach and the official.

I hope what I said makes sense without being aimed at anyone in particular. If it doesn't make sense, I'm away from home - which means I'm uncomfortable - I'm getting tired and I have been on this computer too long doing some research for other things. :D

Nice little <s>pissing contest</s> thread you guys got going. My take:

- an 8th grade coach asks me if I'm going to ever call a foul on his opponents as I'm putting the ball in he had better be smiling. If not I'm going to take a brief time out to ask him to explain if he's accussing me of cheating. What happens next is up to him. If we're dealing with players somewhat older than 12 years old I'll remind him the half has just started and so far we're pretty even (subtle way of pointing to the scoreboad). Or I might just ignore him or even thank him kindly for his input.

- seems to be just a bit too much concern about what these coaches happen to think about you. Work your game and let the coaches think what they want.

- I hear ya coach, I'll watch for it coach, thank you coach, you must be joking coach, that's enough coach...they all work, as does silence. The idea is the same - deal with some question or comment addressed to you and move on.

Agoraphobia?
Appropriate response. Such as "Wasn't that a foul?" "No contact". Or "Why wasn't that a charge?" "Your player didn't have LGP"

RIght.

Right. I don't respond to everything. But if a coach is in my ear, complaining about something specific, sometimes "Thank you" helps them feel that I'm not just brushing them off.

Well, right. And I don't use it int hat situation.

Absolutely. That's the best situation of all.
It's good. Real discussion about real situations.
You mean, you have a life? Cool!

Thanks for joining the rest of us Cretins.

Btw, I agree with you. Care to reconsider? ;)

Actually, it's been bz that's done all the pissing. I've just been trying to keep my leg out of reach!:D

I agree with this statement the most. ;)

Peace

I said I didn't like it and gave a very good reason why. Others agreed completely with my reasoning. You replied with a smart azz :shrug: to me, a whatever :rolleyes: to another poster and I'm the one with the pissing contest....freaking unbelievable.

Yea, you're not the first one to think that about me!

What's freaking unbelievable is that you got this worked up over someone using a phrase that you then told everyone else to never use...that's ridiculous.

Sorry, I didn't mean to insert myself into your little exclusive club.

No what is unbelievable is your comprehension skills.

She gave explicit examples of when she uses it...examples where the phrase thank you makes no sense. No more contextual sense than saying pass the salt. So there's the WTF factor.

Now we all know about sarcasm, this forum wouldn't be the same without it...an out of place thank you is bound to rub some the wrong way and a dry one can just as easily be taken as wrong as a thaaaaaannnnnkkkkk yooooooooouuu! Complete with a :rolleyes:

How ironic that Rainmaker talks about having this as a tool in her kit, when we constantly warn against being a plumber. A mis-applied thank you is a snake IMO.

Just to be clear, you should either use the word "are" or drop the "s" at the end of skills. "Is" implies singular as in skill, but are would go with skills (plural). So my comprehension skills are fine...you got your underwear all in a bind because someone said something that worked for them and you then told them it doesn't work...whatever.

Do you read and understand or do you just check for grammar?:rolleyes:

Working for her or not isn't the issue, the chance it will blow up in someone else's face is the issue.

It doesn't make sense...frankly it's stupid...to reply with thank you when the comment doesn't call for it, confusing a coach into being quiet isn't good game management. Pissing them off when they think you are being a prick is even worse.

Here's a bit of news. Communication is rarely all verbal. I'm willing to bet that Juulie's demeanor is such that she says more on the court than her words convey.
If it's worked for her, then you have no beef whatsoever. It's an alternative to "I hear you coach." Both are just as likely to blow up. And, for what it's worth, silence isn't always the best response.

Thank you.

2007, 07:51pm
Jurassic Referee
Registered User Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 15,016

Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Like what? I suppose it depends on the tone of voice. I've worked hard at keeping the sarcasm out. It's worked for me. Worked very well. *shrug*

I'm with BZ on this one. You will eventually run into a coach that misconstrues your intent and thinks that you're just being a smart-azz. Jmo, but a simple nod of the head to acknowledge that you heard the coach is sufficient. The coach is just trying to work you anyway.


Look familiar?

Yup, and two days ago it was probably relevant too.

Soooooooooo, thank you.

HAHAHAHAHA! Dammit Dan...that's TWO PC monitors you owe me today for spitting my Coke out!

As opposed to saying something witty and pithy such as "I hear you, coach" which will automatically trigger their empathy and stop them from being so pusillanimous, right...orrrrrr, will simply cause the coach to yell something like "Then do something about it!" Yep, that there's way better game management, yeahsureyoubetcha.

Oh well, thank you anyway blindzebra.

A coach gives me information. I express gratitude. How is that confusing?

They don't think I'm being a prick. Never. Even in stripes and sansabelt pants, they know very well that my obnoxious side is better characterized by different vocabulary.

Aw geeze, there you go again......:rolleyes:

You're wrong. They certainly sureashell may think that you're a "prick". A "prick" does not necessarily relate to having a male appendage. If you go to Dictionary.com, you'll find that it's vulgar slang for <i>"an obnoxious or contemptible person."</i> That means of either gender.

Us guys know all this stuff.

I guess I don't mind being included.

This time.

What makes you think that I included you?:confused:

Thank you.

Well, yea, he's the one that was having "that time of the month....":

:p

And, double :p to you!

Hey, you're the one that said it. All I did was blow the whistle after it happened.