Uniform problem in Tennessee
 

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs....80/1039/SPORTS

Looks like the officials were not sure of the rule, so the technicals were not accessed until halftime. That could not have been a fun scene.

Wow, documented enforcement of the NFHS uniform rule! :eek:

Unfortunately, this article also shows how lack of proper rules knowledge can really make officials look poor. :(

BTW any of the five 2nd half starters who were in the game at the end of the 2nd quarter should not have been penalized upon returning to the court for the start of the 3rd quarter.

Not having numbers on the front of the jerseys was an easy one.......all I can say is wow.....

Fortunately it should only take a few such stories to raise the awareness level surrounding legal/illegal jerseys with coaches all around the country. But for those teams whose coaches are dumb enough to ignore the rules and they get tagged for it, that's gotta hurt. I feel bad for the kids. But it's gotta be done.

As I read the rule, a T is assessed once per game for each uniform.
[WIAA -Wisconsin- wants one per team.]
I agree with the coach it's unfair to come back later with more. If you don't know the rule, eat it and play.
No numbers on the front has been a violation for a long time(?). If these aren't new unis, why were they allowed to play with them before?

By rule every illegal jersey is a technical foul. 2 shots for every starter and incoming substitute.

I need to pull the book out, but is there a restriction on when this should be enforced? If no one notices until midway through the 1st quarter, does it get ignored at that point?

Once you notice the violation, it becomes a technical foul.

Just to be snippy, it's never a violation. You could call it an infraction.

Unfortunately, the officials still misapplied the rule since the T needs to be enforced the first time the player with the illegal uniform enters the floor. If the T is not enforced at that time, it cannot be retroactively enforced.

Yes it can and must be enforced if it is caught later on in the game.

Who in their right mind would order uniforms without numbers on the front? {I think I answered my own question.}

Juulie:

Way to go. Now are you starting to talk like me. :D

MTD, Sr.

Juulie - If this is the case, I can give you the name of a good psychiatrist. In fact, I can give you about a dozen. ;)

YIKES!! Padgett-- Call me!

Just call 1-800-nutjobs and ask for Dr. Niles Curvy. If he's not available, ask for Dr. Vinny Boombatz.

OK - trivia quiz - who knows what comedians used to claim these were their doctors?

OK -- Not-So-Trivial Quiz: Who cares?

:(

Seems that some of those here need to read the following: ;)

3.6 SITUATION A: A1 is discovered participating with a visible manufacturer's logo on the shirt. RULING: The shirt is illegal, but the technical-foul penalty cannot be invoked unless A1 is replaced and then re-enters. (10-3-2 Penalty)

3.6 SITUATION C: Prior to the jump ball to start the game, the officials observe that the five Team B starters are all wearing pants which have a manufacturer's logo or school's mascot (a) which meets the proper dimension limitations; or (b) exceeds the limitation of 2¼ square inches by 2¼ square inches in any one dimension. RULING: Legal uniforms in (a). In (b), each of the Team B starters is charged with a technical foul. The starters may play and will not be penalized again if they leave and re-enter. Entering substitutes who become players will also be penalized individually if they are wearing illegal pants.

Interesting. I would have thought that when the players became bench personnel at halftime, they could be charged with the technical foul at the start of the third quarter.

Dr. Boombatz is a great doctor. I really like him. :D

MTD, Sr.

Everybody give up? Johnny Carson goes to Dr. Curvey and Rodney Dangerfield goes to Dr. Boombatz.

I guess MTD Sr. does too!

http://home.sport.rr.com/gregsgraphics/Rodney.jpg

Wrong....first of all, that was specifically mentioned in our state rules meeting by the official OHSAA rules interpreter.

Secondly:

10-3-2...wear an illegal jersey, illegal pants/skirt or illegal number.
PENALTY: (Art. 2) Each violation is penalized one time if discovered prior to ball becoming live for each esignated starter and each substitule who enters.

(italics are mine)

Clearly the uniform violation must be Teed at the start of the game for the starters and on initial entry into the game for each sub. Otherwise, no T. The rules state this and our rules interpreter clarified the same thing at our state rules meeting.

That might be true in Ohio (or whatever "O" state you are in), but it's not the correct FED interp.

If it's missed the first time, it can be asssessed teh next time the player re-enters the game. Nevada laready posted the relevant case play.

Wow!!

Kenwood Coach Frank Bland said the issue had been settled in the pregame meeting and with four free throws by the Lady Pats' Hayley Randolph in the first half..

This have been 10 free throws for each stater and a Technical for every sub there after who enters wearing the illegal jersey.

Thanks, I knew I could count on you to save me some time getting my book out of the car. :) Looks to me pretty clear that if you don't catch it at the start, you hit them whenever they "enter" the game as a sub the next time.

Now, let's add to this a bit. Let's say coach of said team knows the rule and doesn't sub the entire game once he realizes you're going to call it. Can you get them after halftime since they became bench players at the half. Or are you restricted because they didn't enter as substitutes?

I would say restricted unless they enter the game.

Please explain to me then, why does the language in the federation rules include the words "if discovered prior to ball becoming live"? The Federation wouldn't just arbitrarily add those words unless they meant something. And yes, that is Ohio.

Meaning, if a substitute enters the game with an illegal jersey, it can be penalized up until the ball becomes live (ie ball at disposal of player for a throwin). Once the ball becomes live, that player may play without being penalized, until he/she leaves and re-enters the game.

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Now, let's add to this a bit. Let's say coach of said team knows the rule and doesn't sub the entire game once he realizes you're going to call it. Can you get them after halftime since they became bench players at the half. Or are you restricted because they didn't enter as substitutes?

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I agree with truerookie. If no changes are made to the players, then I don't believe that it would be reasonable to contend that they left the game and must reenter. The question that we must answer is, do they have to check-in with the scorer prior to the start of the new quarter? The NFHS has never clearly stated anything on that to my knowledge. If the answer is no, then they are already/still in the game. However, it is true that the NFHS clarified just last year that players remain players during all time-outs, but that all team members are bench personnel during intermissions between quarters (4-34-1,2). So there there is a gray area here.

Ignats,
Unfortunately, you were given poor information from your rules interpreter. I've proven that by posting the Case Book ruling. We'll have to get MTD to contact this guy and straighten him out. ;)

You are not listening. People have told you many times now that what you think is simply not true, yet you keep insisting that it is.

We can't change your mind. You are going to have to do that or elect to continue to misapply the rules.

BTW there is an NFHS interp this very year about a team taking an excess time-out but it isn't recognized or penalized right away that it is more than the alloted number. The ruling is to penalize it when discovered even if that is much later in the game. It is simply not the case that these things must be caught immediately in order to assess a T. Now please reconsider your stance.

Here is the current NFHS interp:
SITUATION 11: A1 requests and is granted an excessive time-out. The excessive time-out is discovered (a) immediately; (b) when A1 has the ball at his/her disposal for a throw-in following the time-out; (c) during a dead ball after three minutes have elapsed off the game clock. RULING: In (a), (b) and (c), assess a team technical foul to Team A for the excessive time-out. Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball for a division line throw-in. The penalty for an excessive time-out is assessed when discovered. (10-1-7 Penalty)

Incorrect. It's a T when a player enters or re-enters the game. If they are in the game already, no T is called. However, if they are subbed out, and return, the T is called (but only 1 T per player per game).

Forget MTD. Call my cousin Tony.

http://www.gilesbowkett.com/images/t...o_close_up.jpg

MTD lives in Ohio. I don't think that Tony does. :)

Ohio, New Jersey. What's the difference?:p

Oh my........

You've never been to Hackensack or Bayonne, have you?

Never been to Columbus, have you?

So, two per player?!? Seems a little harsh....:D

I spent a month there one weekend.

I've been to Columbus once. I have cousins who live there. I remember asking them why they were all wearing Oregon State T-shirts. ;)

How can a weekend turn into a month Jurassic Ref? ;)

somebody give him the link to the sense-of-humor drop in.

OK, I'm man enough to admit when I am wrong. I have another book from the NFHS and that one is very clear. You are correct, they can assess the T when the player reenters the game if they miss it the first time.

Best thing about that place, it's the perfect place to move if you ever find out that you only have a month to live. It'll only be a month, but it'll feel like a freakin' eternity!

Excellent. Learning is what this forum is all about. I'm curious which other book convinced you. I know that the Case Book and the Rules by Topic both contain the following case play:

3.4 SITUATION B: During the first dead ball after the game has started, it is discovered that all Team B players have illegal shirts or illegal pants. RULING: The five players of B cannot be penalized unless they are replaced and are penalized before the ball becomes live on return. Substitutes must be penalized on entry before the ball becomes live. Once the individual is penalized, he/she is permitted to participate without further penalty for that infraction. (10-3-2)

I probably should have cited that case play earlier.

Nevada, I think Ignats quoted the actual penalty for 10.3.2 which stated that Each violation is penalized one time if discovered prior to ball becoming live for each designated starter and each substitute who enters. I read the same thing earlier today at work, and was on the same line of thinking; that the technicals must be assesed if discovered prior to ball becoming live, and the second half was definitely to late.

Now, I guess I must've have missed any posts that relates to the point that the coach stated that the were penalized at the beginning of the game for the infraction or so he thought. If the officials kicked the rule and then misapplied the penalty at the beginning of the game, is it correct to come back in the 2nd half and say, we screwed the pooch, so we're going to fix it now. If technical foul shots were taken at the beginning of the game did they account for those shots and just added on in the 2nd half? How do they know which subs came in and didn't come in? It's just a SNAFU situation. You have an infraction of a rule, you kicked the rule, then you misapplied the penalty of said kicked rule. Is this correctable later in the game, especially 2 quarters later?? If you said you're correcting the infraction because a team was not allotted their free throws, the time has elapsed to correct that, right?

Joe, that game took place in TN. I'm in NV. So I obviously can't answer any questions about what those game officials did or did not take into account or why they handled this as they did. It certainly seems to have been quite a mess.

All that I can do is tell you that per the just cited case book play this infraction certainly can be penalized later in the game if the required circumstances arise. That's all I can say.

Actually, I was in Bayonne 2 days for a week when I worked for the government. :D

Actually, I have been there at least a dozen times in the past 5 years, and that's why I made the comment.:D Also, see my comment back to JR regarding Bayonne. 39+ years with Uncle Sam gave me the opportunity to visit a ton of "garden spots" (i.e. Ft. Drum, NY in February, Cleveland in January, Ft. Bliss (what a misnomer) in August, yada, yada).

Yabut.......

I'll bet that you never stood on the bow of a rusty freighter of Iberian registration, arm-in-arm with your loved one, singing...

<i>Near, far, wherever you are
I believe that the heart does go on
Once more you open the door
And you're here in my heart
And my heart will go on and on.</i>

...while watching the sun set over the Bayonne Bridge.
http://www.cruisecritic.com/images/p...eliberty01.jpg

Yes, we'll always have Bayonne.

Rules by Topic was the NFHS book I used.

and was it the case play that I just quoted that did the trick or something else?

Thanks.

I wish to know because I sometimes have to convince some of our local officials about the more esoteric rules and thus like to know what people find clear and convincing.

You got me there.:D However, in 1965, I did man the rails on the flight deck of a carrier passing under the Golden Gate Bridge as it headed for the Tonkin Gulf and wondering..."What the he** did I get myself into?":p

Funny.

My sister-in-law used to live in Springfield MA.

You ever been to Springfield?? Now *there's* a place to go if you want to experience a freakin' eternity...

You wouldn't be taking a shot at Bhuck Elics now would you? ;)