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-   -   Changing the bonus from shooting to an option (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/39772-changing-bonus-shooting-option.html)

Texas Aggie Wed Nov 21, 2007 08:51pm
Changing the bonus from shooting to an option
 
If there was a rules proposal to add an out of bounds throw in option on any foul in the bonus (i.e. the offended team can take the ball OOB instead of shooting a 1-1 or 2), what would you think of that?

I'm thinking that in situations this could help minimize fouling and all but eliminate fouls to stop the clock. Further, from what I've seen, free throw shooting is somewhere between poor and horrendous for many teams I work and I know some coaches that would gladly accept the ball for a throw in rather than chance a free throw late in the game. It would also force them to teach ball stealing techniques since constant fouling isn't going to get them anywhere.

rainmaker Wed Nov 21, 2007 08:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie
If there was a rules proposal to add an out of bounds throw in option on any foul in the bonus (i.e. the offended team can take the ball OOB instead of shooting a 1-1 or 2), what would you think of that?

I'm thinking that in situations this could help minimize fouling and all but eliminate fouls to stop the clock. Further, from what I've seen, free throw shooting is somewhere between poor and horrendous for many teams I work and I know some coaches that would gladly accept the ball for a throw in rather than chance a free throw late in the game. It would also force them to teach ball stealing techniques since constant fouling isn't going to get them anywhere.
Well, it would still stop the clock, but it would give the fouling team a lower chance of getting the ball.

It's an interesting idea.

jdw3018 Wed Nov 21, 2007 08:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie
If there was a rules proposal to add an out of bounds throw in option on any foul in the bonus (i.e. the offended team can take the ball OOB instead of shooting a 1-1 or 2), what would you think of that?

I'm thinking that in situations this could help minimize fouling and all but eliminate fouls to stop the clock. Further, from what I've seen, free throw shooting is somewhere between poor and horrendous for many teams I work and I know some coaches that would gladly accept the ball for a throw in rather than chance a free throw late in the game. It would also force them to teach ball stealing techniques since constant fouling isn't going to get them anywhere.
Personally, I'd hate it. It's hard enough to get a coach to tell me if he wants a 30 or a full TO (and I don't give him much of a chance if he doesn't tell me right away, we just go full); I don't want to have to ask after every foul whether he wants the throws or the ball OOB.

Fouling at the end of the game and forcing teams to make FTs is an accepted practice.

Texas Aggie Wed Nov 21, 2007 09:01pm
Quote:
Fouling at the end of the game and forcing teams to make FTs is an accepted practice.
Its also bad for the game because 1) it prolongs it and 2) it allows teams to commit rules infractions to gain an advantage.

As far as choice goes, I don't think you'll have a big delay in getting a choice.

rainmaker Wed Nov 21, 2007 09:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie
Its also bad for the game because 1) it prolongs it and 2) it allows teams to commit rules infractions to gain an advantage.
Teams are allowed to commit rules infractions to gain an advantage throughout the game. They just have to be sure they make it look like they're just committing normal fouls. Just like at the end of the game.

jer166 Wed Nov 21, 2007 09:11pm
I believe the NCAA tinkered with this a few years back in some of the pre season tournaments. I don't know what happened, but it hasn't resurfaced at that level.

jdw3018 Wed Nov 21, 2007 09:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie
Its also bad for the game because 1) it prolongs it and 2) it allows teams to commit rules infractions to gain an advantage.

As far as choice goes, I don't think you'll have a big delay in getting a choice.
I see no way you shorten games overall - in fact this will lengthen them - because every foul after the bonus will require you to ask the coach or a captain what he wants, then you and your partners have to adjust to that to prepare for either a throw-in or a FT, whereas only at the end of close games will you have the other issue, and infractions are going to occur regardless, as teams will be aggressively trying to steal regardless.

Nevadaref Wed Nov 21, 2007 09:54pm
Instead of 1-1 if the team trailing in the last X minutes fouls, it should be two shots for fouls 7, 8, & 9 and three shots beginning with the tenth foul.

Or basketball could adopt a clock run-off rule such as football has. Any foul in the final Y minutes by the team behind in the score also results in ten seconds being deducted from the clock.

Both of these would greatly discourage the tactic of fouling when behind late in the game.

JugglingReferee Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie
If there was a rules proposal to add an out of bounds throw in option on any foul in the bonus (i.e. the offended team can take the ball OOB instead of shooting a 1-1 or 2), what would you think of that?

I'm thinking that in situations this could help minimize fouling and all but eliminate fouls to stop the clock. Further, from what I've seen, free throw shooting is somewhere between poor and horrendous for many teams I work and I know some coaches that would gladly accept the ball for a throw in rather than chance a free throw late in the game. It would also force them to teach ball stealing techniques since constant fouling isn't going to get them anywhere.
I've suggested this a few times among some locals. I've also suggested that hockey teams be allowed to choose a 2 minute power play rather than a penalty shot.

Nevadaref Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee
I've also suggested that hockey teams be allowed to choose a 2 minute power play rather than a penalty shot.
The hockey rule should be that if the penalty shot is not successful then the 2-minute penalty is still enforced.

Stat-Man Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jer166
I believe the NCAA tinkered with this a few years back in some of the pre season tournaments. I don't know what happened, but it hasn't resurfaced at that level.
Jer166:

This was an experimental NCAA rule in the past; I forget the exact year. But since I never heard anything after that year, I can only assume it was not very a warmly received experiment.

Mark Padgett Thu Nov 22, 2007 02:18pm
Frankly, I support the idea. Just think of how much it would "clean up" the end of a close game. Defenders would have no reason to foul unless it was the result of them going for the ball. We wouldn't have all this controversy about whether or not a foul was intentional at the end of a game.

A lot of guys say that fouling at the end is just "part of the game". Well - it shouldn't be. Committing fouls on purpose is not what Dr. Naismith envisioned. I ought to know - I asked him personally. ;)

Adam Thu Nov 22, 2007 04:17pm
I still don't see why so many hate the idea of late game strategic fouls. Normally, at most, you'll see maybe 2 or 3 before one of three things happens.

1. It works, and the score gets tied.
2. The shooting team makes their shots and the lead gets so out of reach the trailing team doesn't bother.
3. The lead doesn't really change significantly, but the time continues to run off the clock, leading to the same result as #2.

I just don't understand why some see this is a problem.

Nevadaref Thu Nov 22, 2007 08:16pm
The problem is that the introduction of the 3pt shot changed the situation dramatically. Before then it was not possible for a team to get more points on their possession than their opponents, if the opponents made their FTs. Now you can trade 2 for 3.

just another ref Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie
If there was a rules proposal to add an out of bounds throw in option on any foul in the bonus (i.e. the offended team can take the ball OOB instead of shooting a 1-1 or 2), what would you think of that?

I'm thinking that in situations this could help minimize fouling and all but eliminate fouls to stop the clock. Further, from what I've seen, free throw shooting is somewhere between poor and horrendous for many teams I work and I know some coaches that would gladly accept the ball for a throw in rather than chance a free throw late in the game. It would also force them to teach ball stealing techniques since constant fouling isn't going to get them anywhere.

If a team is not going to shoot the free throws and their opponents know it, why would they not be just as likely to foul?

Coach: "Go for the steal. Be aggressive! If you foul, so what? They take the ball out and we try again."


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