I was just kinda curious what you guys consider to be the most difficult level of play to call.

For me it would have to be Jr. High. The ability often isn't there and so we try to call the game at their level of talent. (Obviously if we called Jr. High ball at a JV level we would be there ALL NIGHT for all the traveling and everything else.) I guess I find this level difficult for that very reason. Sometimes it's tough to know what to call and when.

Girls!!!
 

I do not care what level, night in, night out it has to be girls basketball. It does not matter if it is varsity all the way down to the 5th and 6th graders. Many of the teams has only one player that even knows how to handle the ball, and if that one player does not have the ball, LOOK OUT!! You are going to have problems no matter what you call.

I did a girls game tonite and it was probably the worst I have ever had at the varsity level. I was walking faster than the girls were dribbling. I had to catch myself and slow down because I was getting ahead of the dribbler and beating them to the backcourt and this was with pressure on the ball. It was awful. And will someone please teach these girls to box out for a change. Why are girls just coming under the basket like a magnet to metal and all of them just slapping at the ball instead of grabbing the damn ball. What are these coaches teaching these players?

And no, I am not saying it is difficult to call girls just because they are girls, I wish they had coaches that told them how to play, and stop treating them like little dolls that are going to break if you allow them to have contact.

I could do a JH boys game, and nine times out of ten, they have at least some players that understand what the hell is going on. Too many coaches are too busy trying to run the damn triangle instead of just teaching basic fundamentals on how to dribble and defend.

I have to say it is girls. They are not very well coached, they get other officials that cannot officiate. And when you go out there and hustle, call what you are suppose to call by the rules and have good mechanics, you get ripped apart because you are the only person that calls a actual travel or does not call a player out of control when they are trying to split two defenders just standing there. At least when you do a boys game, they have had some good officials consistently. You do a girls game and you give a damn, you are the best thing since the wheel, or the worst official they have ever seen.

Just an opinion, you asked.

Peace

The highest and lowest levels are tthe hardest to call.
In both cases great judgement is required. I can evaluate a person at a Jr. girls game and get a good evaluation of an official, because how they perform there is how they will perform at the highest level .
Most everything between those levels can be handled adequately by the majority of officials. The people who excel at the lowest and highest are the true "Great Officials"
IMHO
Pistol

Middle school girls, without a doubt. In years past we had a school where we did 2 games side by side at the same time. We would have a 7th grade and an 8th grade B game. Then we would come back and have the 7th and 8th grade A games. All the scores and timers were early teen kids. The coaches were parents were volunteers who really didn't know the game very well. The players were not very skilled.
They would frequently hear a whistle from the court next door and stop playing. Often times a ball from the other court would come into your court and you would have to stop play for the players safety. The pay was low and confusion was the order of the day.

girls middle school games because they usually tend to be sloppy, and like dave said, the coaches are usually volunteers.

3rd and 4th grade:

Boys or girls it doesn't really matter. It's the first level where they keep score in our league. Below that at the Pee-Wee level or 1st/2nd graders, it's just a game and the kids are having fun and all the parents are laughing and having a good time. It's the kind of stuff you see on the TV bloopers. There are no real calls to make. You never call traveling unless the kid picks up the ball and runs with it halfway down the court. You only call OOB and even then, only if the ball hits the wall or something like that.

But once they start keeping score, alot of the fun goes out of the game. Then, the parents get serious. The kids are still out to have fun for the most part but the parents want to WIN! Most of the coaches have no real knowledge of the game. Some are still out to have fun but others are thinking its the NBA and want calls on everything. Parents start pushing their kids and screaming at the officials. It gets really crazy sometimes and we're talking 8-10 yr olds. I really wish they would take the scoring out of the
game until the kids get a bit older so everyone can have fun again.

I think this is one of those times a broad generalization has some merit. To my way of thinking, the lower the level, the more difficult. Here's why.

As we gain experience, we have a tendency to understand the flow of the game and anticipate events. I don't mean necessarily we anticipate calls, but probabilities. For instance, at a varsity level, during the early or middle part of a game, if a kid is on a breakaway, you anticipate either that the defender is going to catch up from behind and try to reach around and probably hit the arm, or that he won't get there and the ball handler will make an easy layup. So, you concentrate on the distance spread of the two players as they come down court and you watch the arms of the defender. However, at a lower level, it's just as likely that the ball handler will dribble the ball off his knee OOB, or miss an open layup, or that the defender will trip over the heel of the ball handler, etc.

My point is that you have to watch for a lot more at lower levels because the things you could otherwise narrow your concentration on are not necessarily the things that will happen in a given situation.

The more you have to watch and be prepared to call, the more difficult it is to be consistent and to concentrate on contact.

Give me varsity level anytime, although the kids definitely are funnier when they are younger.

The Howler Monkeys are funny on any level. :D

Most difficult level
 

Mr. Rutledge hit the nail right on the head! Girls of any level are the hardest to officiate. College girls aren't too bad and the lower levels aren't bad either because there isn't as much competitive expectations as the upper levels of girls basketball. We did a Varsity girls-boys double header last night as the schools are quite a ways apart. The boys played first and we had a game go right down to the wire. My partner and I both felt great about the game. The coaches and players all came up to us and thanked us for a great game. Between games several fans commented on what a good job we did as well.

THEN THE GIRLS TOOK THE FLOOR!

After that game it felt as if I had never officiated a game before. I guess I am too hard on myself, but someday either I will refuse to do girls games or learn that it is impossible to feel as if you called a near perfect girls game.

Big Joe
 

It is a good thing that they have the boys play the early game of the double-header .... I prefer that arrangement over the reverse (girls then boys)... slow, disjoint game followed by a fast, cohesive game.

Re: Big Joe
 

If I had a choice, I would always rather have the boys game first. The girls game is usually much slower, it is not played as well, and they want you to call everything.

Then you do the boys game, the tempo steps up several notches, the players can all dribble, and if they cannot the coach is not yelling at you to bail him out. And it takes quarter and a half to get the feel of the game, because you had such a different pace the game before.

I would rather do a JV game, then a Varsity boys game to follow. At least there is a similar tempo at play.

But to each his own.

Peace

First off, JR if you dislike girls' basketball so much do take the damn (please excuse my French) games.

<B>[SNIP -- Please be nice Mark. Thanks - Brad]</B>

Second, while jr. H.S. games (boys or girls) can be difficult, I really think the the most difficult are men's college jr. varsity. The colleges that have these teams are either NCAA Div. III or NAIA. Many times, the team consists of freshmen and sophomores who will eventually move up the the varsity so the school fields a team so that these players will get playing time, but to fill out the roster, there are football players on the team who played H.S. ball, but really are college caliber basketball players. To make things more difficult the officiating crews are usually two-man crews, which means you are really hustling up and down the court. Do not get me wrong, these games are some of the most fun games to officiate but the football players on the court sometimes forget that this is basketball not football. They do not play dirty, but they are little out of their element.

[Edited by Brad on Feb 6th, 2002 at 02:25 PM]

Rut,

<B>[SNIP]</B>

You are right..the boys game is different from the girls game in style and tempo. Some refs are able to adjust to do both and others are more comfortable doing one or the other. To each their own. Take a deep breath..it'll be all right.

Z

[Edited by Brad on Feb 6th, 2002 at 02:26 PM]

High School CYO ( Basket Brawl!) nm
 

Re: Girls!!!
 

I do seem to get more people yelling from the crowd at girls games than boys. It's funny though, I had 2 girls freshman games this week that were better than the girls varsity game I had.....

They are out there!!!!
 

I wonder how many people who monitor this board are in a position to influence some of our members progression as referees? If there are and I expect so then JR better hope that they are not in his chain of command- but I suspect some are. I know of several very influential people who monitor this forum but rarely post but when they do they are very succint and to the point.
Just a thought
Pistol

Re: Who cares if they are!!!!!!
 

I do not have a chain of command. I am not in one of those states where you live and die by one group, or one individual. So who cares. Because the reality, I work for many assignors that make big differences between girls and boys. As a matter of fact, there are many assignors that I work for that think that officials that do girls, should not do boys. And those assignors that have asked me to do girls, ask me as if all I will say is no. And you will literally have some assignors that will classify certain guys as "girls officials" and will not hire them for their boys varsity conferences.

See, we here are completely independent. I personally next year will be working in about 20 conferences across the state. And I work for about 6 different assignors that assign about 8 conferences between them. Two of them assign the girls and would not even dare ask me, not because I would turn them down, because they do not want there officials doing many girls games. One assignor is the only one that asked me to do any, but they are very early in the season when the girl's seasons starts, which is before the boy's season. And he did give me a game that was early in the afternoon, but I had a boy's varsity game that evening. So he gave me girls games total. Neither able to affect my boy's schedule.

What an assignor sees here would be the same attitude that they have about their own conferences and tell the officials that want to work for them. And when I tell other assignors who I work for, they usually ask, "would you be willing to do girls?" So in the end who cares.

I work where I want, work for who I want and work when I want. Actually, I took on games that I did not have to do because I was asked. As a matter of fact, I am asked a lot. And I turn down many games because of the circumstances.

See, if you are afraid to say something in the dark, you should not be afraid to say it in the light. Because it will eventually come to light. I am not afraid of either. What I say here, I will say in a crowded association meeting. And considering where I live, I might have many that would say it before me.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Feb 3rd, 2002 at 01:54 PM]

I think the hardest game to ref is the one where the coaches and parents are blaming the refs for the bad play. It doesn't matter what level it is. As long as the adults are holding the kids responsible for the game, it goes pretty well. But when the adults are yelling about how "that was a great play" even though she knocked the other player to the floor, and "bad call, ref, honey don't worry about it" the game just gets worse and worse.

Does it sound like I had a bad day at the gym?. ...

Don't worry, I'll feel better after I sleep it off (and talk to my assignor -- not you, Howard)

"Rut" is a good name. He's in one. He doesn't like youth, he doesn't like girls' games. Why in the world does he officiate those games if he has prejudices against them going in?

Bob

I know you didn't
 

You are right, I hate kids. So much that I spend time in communities that you would never be caught dead in. I hate kids so much, that I never counseled kids about being better human beings and staying off drugs and out of gangs. I spend much more time with young people outside of a stupid court or field that you would not know what to do with yourself. And those that I have met through the arena of sports, I talk to them about college and what they are going to do outside of this arena. I have went out of my way to complement kids about their leadership ability and the positive things they displayed on the court, but stressed to them that athletics is wonderful, but you need to have other things to look forward too. And I tell them and show them ways they can be a positive force in their communities.

Sorry, I hate kids so much that I have sat in the rough places of Chicago and will coach a group of kids this summer baseball in a community that you would probably be too afraid to drive your stupid car in.

So what the hell am I prejudice of? I have done more with my little pinky than you will do in your entire life. And I am always willing to work with children to make their lives better. I was blessed with parents that are educated and never had to suffer a day in my life, and I want to give kids some hope that do not have parents or stable homes. Shut the hell up trying to tell me what kind of prejudices I have with some kids that you would probably lock your car if one of them walked by you.

What community or children have you tried to change today? But I am the one prejudice against them. Who the hell am I going to be prejudice of. I should be prejudice against these little privledged *** kids in the community that I currently live where there parents drive several $40,000 cars a second care.

And for your information, the kid I was talking to was BLACK!!! Because I am another African-American male, and care much more about how he is treated me, because in the end, when his athletic ability is not at use, the rest of you will throw away him as fast as you picked him up. I talked to him to make sure that he understood who the hell I was, because if he talked to me the same way on the street as he did me, he might not have any chance to take back those words. I am probably getting too deep for you, but then again, your life is wrapped up in officiating. Mine is not. I have a much higher calling in life than a stupid game.

Peace

Re: I know you didn't
 

i thought you were black first-----just kidding i remeber this from another post.

rut,
dont worry, deep down who really does like to ref girls game for the pure enjoyment! (nobody) myself, i look at these games as a stage to practice for the better games and also everyone has to work these games every now and then, its called paying your dues!

Couple groups. Sophmores, boys and girls. You are usually in an empty gym with players they can't put on the JV or Varisty teams yet are not freshman. The other would be youth girls. When ten girls are within 10 feet of each other then incedental contact does happen.

Re: Re: I know you didn't
 

Actually, a good girls game is as much fun as, or more fun than a good boys game to work. The two games, played at their best, are very different, and each had its pleasures. Each game played poorly, is no fun at all. I feel sorry for you, Rut and crew, for not having good girls games in your area. Those of us in Portland are blessed with a very high level of girls bball, because of the challenge presented to teams in the area, by the Oregon City HS team which has been ranked nationally in the top 10 for the last 10 years or so. Because of OCHS, we have many, many very fast, skilled teams locally, and we draw such teams from around the region to our tournaments. It is good for us refs, too, since we get more opportunities to see good girls play, and more practice.

Now if our women's team could do as well (Fire in 2002!!)...

You guys may be good, but until you can do a great girls game, you won't be great. Sorry...

I hope everyone noticed that I did not reply to Rut, because I believe that his opinion was requested on this issue. However, crew, your question about "who wants to ref a girls game" has quite a simple answer. Many, many officials. There are also many, many officials who do not wish to do so. So be it.

I am fortunate in my experiences with girls basketball, I guess primarily because it is strong in this area and I work with AAU. All of my AAU players start for their school teams. Most AAU teams are like an area all-star team, and the caliber of play at the AAU A level even in MS is quite good. One 13U girls team played in the 8th grade boys travelling league and posted a winning record (my boys beat them :) but it took our best game of the season). The top team in our region won 13U nationals, and it wasn't the team that played in the boys league (they made nationals but did not place in the top 16). Most of these girls will be D1 women's players and all of them can play ball. They can't dunk, but they can handle a ball, shoot, run the break, etc.

Right on Hawkes coach!!!
Here in Victoria BC we have excellent Girls BB at all levels and we entertain many superb AllStar groups from the Seattle area and all down the coast who visit during school breaks and in the off season. They come complete with parents, cheerleaders , fans etc and have a blast playing and visiting our city, especially since their US dollar gets about $1.63 Can. Sure makes for a cheap trip to Canada's # 1 tourist destination.
I personally love the opportunity to work those games as does the great majority of our highest rated officials. The level of play is excellent and the local teams win their fair share of the games. Come on up and rate our teams and officials. You may be surprised.
Pistol

Island Summer Shoot-out
 

Hi Again ,
I just looked up the next girls invitational in Victoria on
http://www.usjn.com/master.htm
Brett Wescott is hosting this top invitational 2-3 June 2002 in Victoria. Cost is $225 (Can) I think. Age levels 13-17. His Ph # (250)388-9807. Contact him.
If there are any referees out there who like good girls ball and regularly work those age groups contact me and we will host you too!!! Contact me at [email protected]
Pistol

Island Summer Shoot-out 6-7 June
 

PS,
I also noticed he is hosting HS/JV girls on the 6-7 June as well. Come on up for the whole week!!!
Pistol

Everyone -- you are going to have to knock off the personal attacks... It serves no good purpose.

I've deleted some of the comments and responses (even those in and of themselves were not deragatory, simply retaliatory).

Get back to discussing basketball... If you don't like someone, simply keep it to yourself.

Thanks,
Brad