personal communication with coaches
 

with the arbiter, it is easy to send emails to representatives of a school, the AD or whatever. What do you all think about sending an email to the AD requesting the opinion of a coach regarding the game you did recently. Would that compromise your position as an official. An example would be:

I was wondering if [name of coach] had any feedback for me. I have already critiqued myself and I know there were some things I should have done better but I would love to hear her perspective on areas where I can improve. She seems very professional in her approach. Anyway, she may feel uncomfortable saying anything, which is also fine. I will not take anything personal; I would not have asked if I did not want to hear the cold hard truth.

I hate not getting feedback from good coaches; their opinion is often very valuable. I have no idea whether anyone would respond to such an email. But it seems like it is worth a try. On the other hand it may be seen as self-promotion or a compromise of the distance between ref and coach.

Thoughts?

What makes you think that any coach or AD is qualified to evaluate you? Do you really think that they know the rules perfectly? Or that they know the mechanics you're supposed to be using? Do you think that they're watching <b>you</b> every minute out there instead of watching their own players as well as the other team? The only time a coach notices you is when <b>you</b> blow your whistle. At all other times, they have way too much to do than worry about what you're doing.

It's not a good idea at all imo. If you want positive feedback and a knowledgeable opinion, get it from your peers. And your peers are officials, not coaches or AD's.

What would you say if the coach or AD asked you to rate and evaluate his performance as a coach or AD? Do you honestly think that you are knowledgeable enough and qualified to do so? Do you watch them so that you know what they are doing during the game?

Fuggedaboutit.

I agree with the Dinoman...I'd get another official to observe your game or even your partner(s). I think you will get an unbiased opinion from a fellow official and they will give you constructive critizism. A winning coach may give you feedback that you want to hear but not really helping you and a losing coach may rip you a new one without just cause...

I'd go the route of another official...

Agree with JR.

You made some calls you're not happy with? Live with it, learn from it, move on.

Nothing good will come of you asking a coach to provide feedback on your performance.

There are just too many problems and too few benefits that could come from that type of communication, IMO. You don't need to explain anything to the coach, and you don't need any feedback from the coach...

I have asked for a coaches feedback only once in 27 years. He just so happened to have been my Coach in High school and 2 years in college. I was taught by this gentleman for a total of 8 years and have known him since I was 13 years old. He has taught my oldest son in High School. I was confident that he knew me and I was comfortable with what ever he told me would be unbiased and knowledgeable. That being said when I asked for the opinion I had been officiating for 22 years already and I ensured he was not coaching but observing a game for recruiting purposes.

The feedback I got was favorable and he did point out some quirks he thought may lead to questioning by coaches. It did help me to better understand the coaches perspective.

That was my experience I am sure others would be different.

Coaches....
 

In our association we are rated by the coaches.

Personally I hate it.


Why?

Because if you have a problem with a coach are you going to get a good rating? No.

If you "T" up a coach he is going to give you a bad score for that game. The only way to get a good score if you hold the coach in your hands like a new born baby. JMO

I agree with most. A pet peeve of mine at the state level is that we are evaluated for the most part by AD's and coaches, few of which really have an idea what they are looking for. Find another official or a mentor to come watch you or find someone to hold a camera and go home for self evaluation. I'm not sure where you are in your career, but early on I talked to a couple of really good crews and they let me come work the JV game in a JV/V double header. I worked the JV game as they rotated in and out working with me. They had lots of good stuff to talk to me about in between games. Following that I watched the varsity game and asked a few questions at the half and following the game. Great way to learn.

In Illinois it's to our advantage to be rated by Coaches.It seems that the more ratings that you have the better your percentile. Problem is most Coaches don't bother to do this. I do email both Coaches and ask them to rate the crew. Are they qualified to rate us? Probably not in terms of mechanics or applying rules but if you're not working hard and are unapproachable that they can evaluate.

I've yet to do it in basketball but I have emailed Baseball Coaches case plays when they disagree with me on how I applied a rule. I didn't want them to think I didn't know what I was doing. I've never asked them "how did I do". Frankly they will think what they think. I just do my best.

My association holds the coaches opinion in very high regard. To the point if you do "T" him/her up they request that you don't do their games. That puts us officials in a bad position and i know it is in the back of my mind when a coach gets to a point where they diserve a T and I'm hesitatnt to give it out.

I spoke out at our last meeting last week about bench decorum and the assignor and commissioner both looked at me like you better not follow that rule. Keep in mind they didn't say it but the look made it very clear. tough to do your job unless you have everyone calling from the same sheet of rules.

Really? They told us the exact opposite out here. In fact, if we don't take care of business it will affect our post-season selection.

COLORADO HIGH SCHOOL ACTIVITIES ASSOCIATION
BOY'S AND GIRL'S BASKETBALL BENCH DECORUM: STRENGTHENED ENFORCEMENT

For the 2007 - 08 season, CHSAA basketball has made a commitment to see substantial improvement in the enforcement of appropriate bench decorum. This commitment is a continued effort to promote and encourage positive sporting behavior among the CHSAA membership. This commitment is in cooperation with the CHSAA / IAABO Board 4 basketball officials.

Throughout the season, the following rules and guidelines shall direct officials and coaches in the administration of bench decorum:

Head coaches and other bench personnel who engage in the following unsporting actions, in or out of the coaching box, are in violation of the bench decorum rules and should be assessed, without, warning, a direct technical foul (Excerpted from the NF basketball rule book rule 10-4-1)

Disrespectfully addressing an official (i.e., questioning the integrity of an official, voicing displeasure about officiating through continuous verbal remarks).
Attempting to influence an official's decision (i.e., physically charging toward an official).
Using profanity or language that is abusive, vulgar, or obscene (i.e., directed toward an official, opponents, or anyone).
Disrespectfully addressing, baiting or taunting an opponent.
Objecting to an official's decision by rising from the bench or using gestures (i.e., excessively demonstrating by use of gestures or actions that indicate displeasure with officiating).
Inciting undesirable crowd reactions.
Entering the playing court unless done with permission of an official to attend to an injured player.

The rule (10-5-1) states that the head coach shall remain in his/her team's coaching box. A head coach is outside the coaching box when he or she is clearly and completely outside of the prescribed coaching box.

By rule, a head coach may legally leave the coaching box during play only under the following conditions: to confer with personnel at scorer's table to request a timeout for a correctable error as in rule 2-10, or to prevent or rectify a timing or scoring mistake or alternating possession mistake.

However, if a head coach is found to be outside the coaching box appropriately communicating with officials, coaching his/her team, engaged in miscellaneous legal activity or minor conduct infractions a single warning shall be issued. Subsequent infractions will result in a direct technical foul.

The head coach is responsible for the conduct and behavior of all bench personnel (all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to; substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statisticians(s).

NOTE: Game officials will be responsible to enforce the aforementioned guidelines throughout the season; consistency in doing so will affect post season CHSAA selection and assignments.

CHSAA 11/10/07 CH/TR

We just talked about that last night at the meeting. "Early and often" was the quote. :)

Our assigner is a football coach, and he said the best thing that happened last fall was a renewed emphasis on sportsmanship; even when it was his knuckleheads getting flagged for 15 yards.

The only caveat we were given was to not say anything stupid in the process.

What board do you belong to here in the Commonwealth? I believe that Joyce S. of the VHSL would be displeased to hear that information coming from the leaders of any officials board in the state.:eek:

Not true.... a coach can tell you if you are calling consistent game or not. A coach can see if you have an arrogant attitude... coaches can convey alot from their posistion.

Not true.
Maybe.
???????

I'm not sure if your first statement is true. One of the conferences I work every year did a survey of coaches a few years ago. They said that the game was called too tight when they were on defense and the game was too rough when their team was on offense. Many coaches have a hard time keeping their bias out of their ratings.

Why not.... I'm not saying that a coach is qualified to say that your call is right or not.. but it your calling lets say... traveling.. if you call it the same every time.. that is consistency... now the coach may argue wheather its traveling or not, but what I want to know more than anything is if I consistently callled it the same every time. Most coaches I have talked to have said if you gonna call it that way... do it for the entire game. Its probably the biggest gripe I have heard.

So.. yes a coach can tell you if you are being consistent.

A coach is looking at the game from a different perspective. I would take anything a coach says with a grain of salt. Just because they observe something does not mean they actually know what is good officiating or bad officiating.

Peace

Oh really? Is a 8-2 foul count consistent or should Team A with 8 fouls stop reaching & move their feet??

Arrogance should not be confused with confidence.

Convey alot of what? That's travel... 3 seconds... where's the foul :D


"No disrespect coach, but if the Feds wanted the calls made from the sidelines they would probably place the officials on the bench right beside you"

Keep in mind I didn't say they did. the facial expression is what got me thinking...

I guess I would have to ask why you would want the coach's opinion? What is the point...the majority of the time they will tell you that calls in their favor were good calls, calls against them were questionable. They would probably even make reference to some situation that happened 5 years ago when you did one of their games...and what if the coach says you did a great job? Do you pat yourself on the back? At least until the next time he sends you an evaluation and tells you how horrible you were that night...

As one of my mentors once told me (many moons ago) - if you believe them when they tell you you were good, you have to believe them when they tell you you were bad.

to coaches you as good as the last call you made that was in their favor. I'm a 10 year vet and always believe that there is room for improvement. I found that when I started I really didn't have a mentor and all the bad habits I picked up I felt were ok. Till I went to my first camp and I felt like I knew nothing especially mechanics luckily it was early in my officiating career and was able to adjust. What an eye opener.

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20
.... a coach can tell you if you are calling consistent game or not. A coach can see if you have an arrogant attitude... coaches can convey alot from their posistion.

I would agree to SOME degree with Bearfanmike. I have a cousin who's the girls varsity coach at a local school, and I have done some freshman and reserve girls games for that school. He's usually watching the games (more or less to monitor progress by the players in his progress and to see if his assistants are doing their jobs), and there were times he's had some feedback for me, both positive and not-so-positive. He was able to discern whether I was being consistent, and if my attitude was bordering on arrogant or not. Usually, if I got the feeling he was sugar-coating something, I'd ask him bluntly to be blunt and he will be.

I disagree that a coach's opinion of your consistency is going to be valid. Their opinion is colored by their bias. You call a charge on one end and a block on the other end, they consider that inconsistent even when it's not.

One game last year, I had a travel call on a three point shooter. Other end of the court, very next play, I had the other team execute a perfect jump stop prior to his 3-point shot and the coach was whining about consistency. They weren't the same thing, but they were close enough to look like it to a biased observer.

Again, I stand by my disagreement. Consistency is not where coaches ought to be rating officials.

Maybe, game management and approachability. Hustle. Maybe.

If you're talking about someone who has some reason to be partial towards you as well as the team, I'll go with it to some degree. In general, with coaches who aren't related to you, I don't think they're generally qualified to judge an official's consistency.

I think that Coaches can provide an impartial and objective critique ONLY when they are not involved withthe game being played. That is if they are watching a game from the sidelines and not actually coaching in it.

Cute.

I didn't happen to see you used the word "impartial" in there anywhere...but I'm sure a coach can tell me all sorts of stuff without being even slightly impartial.

Question is, does it have value to me?

Better question is why would I call or email him after the game to ask him if he thought I sucked.

I disagree with that statement & here's why.
Last season I'm working a very competitive, inner-city, cross town rival JV game. With the varsity game to follow the atmosphere is pretty darn close to varsity level. The varsity coach is front row in the stands & giving me & my partner more hell than the JV coach whose game it actually was.

I don't want a V coach evaluating me while I'm doing his/her schools JV game either! Bias will creep into the eval as the school wants all levels to win.

I'd take this a bit further to say it has to be game they have no interest in. A varsity coach watching his JV play, for example.
A JV coach watching his varsity, for example.
A boys coach watching the girls game, for example.
A coach watching a game that his kids are playing in, for example.
A coach watching a game his wife is coaching, for example.

Did you have game management talk to him?

Simple solution to all of these problems. Prior to the game, ask each coach if they want to buy foul insurance.

NO. not impartial. NEVER.. LOL but.. if you call a violation on his guys the same all the way through the game a coach will recognize that.

...and again, why would I ask a coach to evaluate my performance? He'll have an opportunity to rate me.

Am I open to criticism? Absolutely. Do I evaluate my own performance during a game? Sure. Do I ask my partners for input if I think I'm not quite having the best game of my life? Yes. Do I ask a coach during or after a game what he thought of my game? Never.

The old rules interpreter for a board in Maryland used to give coaches a test before the season. He would always only have one or two that passed. If a coach can't pass a test similar to the one we take, how can they give an impartial evaluation?
In Mississippi the coaches do evaluate the officials. Those that know me I'm always in danger of getting a bad eval because I'm there to do the best job I can and I don't care what the coach says. On Saturday I had the opportunity to ask a coach when he actually did the evaluation. He told me that he never does it right after the game. He said he likes to wait, watch the film and then do it. If only all the coaches did it this way.

One thing that alarms me about this conversation is the same problem I see in officiating. Back in the day a term was often used - be seen and not heard. Currently, reading the rules makes an official think he/she knows enough to participate in conversations - conversations that discuss doing things on the court that they simply cannot do.
I said all of that to say this. There are experienced officials on this board that are giving their opinion and constantly meeting opposition. Think about this for a second. Someone who has experienced something is giving an opinion and someone who hasn't had the experience is disputing that. Doesn't make sense to me. The bottom line is coaches do not like officials. They are not your friends. Some might think those two statements are extreme and they may be. But those two statements are a lot closer to the truth than thinking a coach is going to give an unbiased opinion.

Gunman out!

I apologize for dipping my toes in the basketball waters; however, this seems to be a topic that covers multiple sports.

In my experience of officiating baseball, football, and coaching football (hey only two seasons, put the pitchforks away!) the amount of coaches that are able to do this are a small percentage. I've had the occasional losing coach tell me I've done a good job but the comments of "call it both ways" are much more common.

Aside from a few personal friends that are coaches, I would not actively solicit the opinions of coaches from games that you've worked. I would imagine that is only going to invite more problems than it would solve.

tomegun, well said!

On an unrelated note, I might have to get in on this basketball officiating thingy, you guys have way too much fun here.

Having said that you are in danger, we know you are a good official; does your assignor or commissioner back you up when you get poor evaluations? My experience is that most commissioner especially at the High school level will not back the official up and be afraid to go against the system because they may loose the contract if they oppose the coaches and the AD's. IMO that has been my experience. As you stated.

No, I felt really comfortable about how I was calling the game so while I was at T (2 person) on a free throw administration I discreetly asked him if he wanted to hang around for the varsity contest or if he would rather me hit the eject button now.

I know that wasn't procedure but...

Result:
I never heard another word from him that night. He's a great, brilliant HS coach & led his squad to the 5A Boys State Championship last season.

I did see him often over the summer as I worked all the Pro-AM & DPS summer leagues I could get my hands on & he showed respect each time our paths crossed.

Procedure? I would have to say that in this particular instance, who cares what "procedure" is! It worked, and it seems like the coach got your message loud and clear...sounds like something Bhuck Elics or Jon Diebler would do! Good on ya, mate.

Bhuck Elics is no Jon Diebler. Jon is on a whole 'nother plane. There's just no comparison.

Sorry, Bhuck but there it is.

I don't think he backs me up. I normally send emails to tell him, and explain, before he hears it elsewhere.
For instance, he was in the stands during a rivalry game last year. I'm at the C in front of a coach and one of my partners calls a non-shooting foul. The coach felt like it should have been a shooting foul. Because he didn't get a shooting foul he said, "See ref, that is just racial." Nobody was paying attention to our side of the court until I wheeled on him and whacked is ***! I'm black, the coach was black and my partner is white. There is NO place for that in high school basketball! There is no place for that on the planet! He got the foul for crying out loud. My partner is a racist because he didn't give him a shooting foul? The assigner seemed to vanish after the game. This coach was a problem - noticed I said was as in his *** got the boot - and the assigner didn't even bother to come into our dressing room to find out what happened.

Ooh, he went and said it!

I hear you.. we as officals are on an Island alone. Coaches don't like us, the players don't like us, the fans don't like us and our association leaders don't back us.

But everyday I enjoy getting on that court doing my job.

What are you talking about? WE aren't out there alone -- we don't like you either! It's just you refva. You out there all by yourself against the whole world. :D:D

Did you know Bhuck Elics backwards spells Scile Kcuhb?

Food for thought my friend...

Thank goodness you're misspelling it correctly...

Thanks Rainmaker, you made my day..:eek:

Well, I was totally joking, but I do see a serious point behind this joshing. I think having the attitude that everyone's out to get you makes it more difficult to have a good game. Even when they ARE out to get you (which I'm not sure they always are), usually there are ways to cut through the antagonistic stuff and have a more collaborative front. Especially coaches and players need to learn to see refs as being less enemies and more as neutral or objective. That attitude will grow more when you can have it, too. I'm not saying your feelings of paranoia are wrong, just that it's better for you to try to fight them.

I understand your point, don't get me wrong most of the coaches know me well and have a very professional relationship on and off the court. Although there are some coaches that just have that wall no matter what.

But what is it in metric??? :confused:

Just add a 'u' somewhere. You can choose where.

Holy crap...Dan_Ref spelled backwards is Fer_Nad.

Glad that "e" isn't a "u" or rainmaker would be p!ssed!!:p

Wow, hell's gettin' crowded these days.

That's MR Fer_Nad to you, Daorykcor Wha...? Oh I get it... Revaeb!

Whoa!

Wait a minute there, Mr. Furry Nads. That's kinda looks like that misogny thingy that I've heard sooooooooooo much of lately. As Shakespeare(or was it me?) once said <i>"A revaeb by any other name......"</i>. And you know what happened to Shakespeare(and me).

Now you're in for it.

Well, not from me. Girls and boys in Oregon learn early on to deal with the 5th grade giggling that comes with the word "beaver". By the time we grow past the mental and emotional age of 12, it's pretty much gone. Of course, there are a few of us who never grow up... but that's more an item for pity and condescension than reprimand. You poor, poor little boys!

Does that mean if I call Dan a "beaver", you won't get mad?:confused:

Why confused? Is that an insult? Is it belittling? Would Dan be a discredit to the state of Oregon? He can be a Beaver if he wants to!

Got it. <b>Beaver</b> is fine. Just trying to make sure that I know the rules.

Don't get comfortable with them. They'll change in an instant.

OOO, I get to set the rules!?!? Way cool! :D

Not necessarily. If it's up to me, they'll be permanent,,,, after an experimental season or two. It's so much easier to stick to the rules when you know what they are. Hmmm... maybe I need to be on the Rules Committee. Is that included in my new-found power, JR??

Darlin' (can I say that?), you are the rules committee.

Sure, hon. Y'all can say whatever y'all jolly well please. I never said you couldn't. As long as I'm free to think you're being obnoxious, rude and offensive when I want to.

Certainly. It will be enshrined as <i><b>The Power Of The Beaver</b></i>.

And so it is written, and so it shall be!

Btw, the Power ain't really new-found. Us married guys have known about it for years.

Okay, well, yup, that's about it. Obnoxious, Rude, Offensive. About what I expected.

Yeah, he's a real prick.

Now that's funny!!

Funny? Waddyamean funny...I make you laugh? You mean like a clown...? I'm a clown...you think I'm a clown...???

http://web.telia.com/~u86424368/DR/Goodfellas.jpg

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Uhhh.... no? I, uh.... think you have a really sophisticated, witty sense of humor?? I,... uh... like that smile?? ... just don't shoot me!! I'm a pacifist for pete's sake!

Yup, misandry is funny. Yup. Got it.

You're serious, or kidding? Seriously, I'm asking. If calling someone a p--- isn't misogyny, why is calling someone a prick misandry? Seriously, what's your point? Do we have to start talking in real sentences about real things? Is that what this world is coming to?

errr...you're loosing lots of cred here...but it's your issue, who am I to butt in?

yea, okay I get it. I think it's time to check out now. I've got to get up out of my deathbed and make dinner for the men, and one little boy ** sigh ** (hee hee hee)

Seriously? Turn it around.......

If calling somebody a prick isn't misandry, then why is calling somebody a p***y misogyny?

I do believe that you are finally getting the point. Those two little "P" words can either <b>both</b> denote hatred towards the opposite sex or <b>neither</b> of them may actually denote hatred against the opposite sex. Simply calling somebody one of them does not <b>automatically</b> mean that the person doing the calling is a misogynist or a misandrist.

If either of those words do denote actual hatred, it usually depends on the context that they're being used in.

Sooooooo..........I'll drop it now.

Maybe.

Except I'm still gonna reserve the right to call Dan a <b>beaver</b> every now and then. And I'm quite certain that he'll feel free to call me a "prick" also.:D

Oops. I think the degeneration of this thread is my fault. Who knew that calling Dan "Furry Nads" would lead to all of this misandry and misogyny and pusillanimous humor? Who knew, I ask...:D :cool:

This is the most misanthropic thread yet. :(

Beaver.

Devil made me do it.

JR - don't come down too hard on the old beav.

http://www.geocities.com/alcus2/beaver.jpeg

Heh

I'm watching the democrat debate... 5 pricks, 1 @sshole and 1 pussy...here's the pussy with his wife

http://www.cleveland.com/images/hp/3...inich1212b.jpg

Them's fighting words to a Husky fan!:mad: :mad: :mad:

You like them l'il white sled dogs?

Not that there's anything wrong with that.......