Any info on Kansas interp on standing coaches?
 

Did anyone get an answer to the Kansas interp on the standing coaches question?

Nope. No replies to e-mails. Nothing to say either way whether K-ref was right or not. Based on the majority of his posts though.....

Even the UIL rulings in Texas specifically state that "the coach may stand, sit or kneel in the coaches box".... These rulings are then enforced by TASO...... seemed really odd that Kansas would be so different. I can post the link if needed. :)

The wording from the website has already been posted. Coaches apparently do have to stand in Kansas. No kneeling allowed. What wasn't clear was whether a coach could stand in his box if he/she wasn't coaching(talking) but just standing there, quietly watching the game. That would be different. Let's give a "T" to a coach for <b>not</b> saying anything. That would be right up there with saying "That's a technical foul for kneeling in the coaching box."

aahhhh, that clears it up. Thanks.

I think their rule is that coaches must stand but cannot dunk during pregame unless kneeling. :p

Aren't there any other current Kansas officials here who can verify one way or the other?

I've moved from Kansas (this summer), so I don't know about any new interps, but in the past couple years bench decorum has been emphasized every year by the state, but I've never been given any instruction other than "in order to be standing, the coach needs to be coaching." They've encouraged coaches to know that, as well, but I was never told to T a coach if they were just standing there. My instruction was always to use the rules to my advantage if having a problem with a coach, but short of that just to make sure they stay in the box.

In most other states, anyway, this means they can't stand up to b!tch about the officiating. Thanks.

For those don't know I was born in Lawrence, KS, and my mother was born and raised in Bashor, KS, and KU is her college alma mater. Having said that, I would like to request the poster who started this thread to give us some history of behind his query.

I went to the KansasHSAA's website and read the Basketball Regulations. And this is what the Regulations said concerning the Coaching Box:


Coaching Box
In order for a coach to use the coaching box they must begin the game by sitting where the box is located. A coach is not required to use the coaching box, but if the coach begins the game by sitting somewhere other than where the box is located, he/she may not use the box privileges any time during the game. The coach must begin the game in a position within the box if he/she wishes to stand when permitted. (NFHS Casebook page 83; 10-5-1 Situation E) Coaches may not squat in the box, they may stand to coach and then be seated. . The coaching box should be marked properly before a game begins, even if that means with athletic tape. The Basketball Manual has proper markings illustrated on page 17.

A point of emphasis this year from the NFHS and KSHSAA is proper use and enforcement of the six foot (6’) coaching box. Coaches must stay within the coaching box. Wandering coaches create problems including:

Distinct advantage gained by ability to better communicate with teams
Interferes with play
Distracting to players and officials
Perceived as an intimidation tactic toward officials and table personnel
Can incite inappropriate player, bench and spectator behavior
Coaches must remain in the box while coaching. Officials should warn the coach on the first offense of being out of the box “just coaching”. The second offense a technical foul should be assessed to the coach.


Based on the the page number in the Casebook Play reference and the noting of a six (6) foot coaching box, I am going to make and educated guess that this section of the Basketball Regulations was written for the 2005-06 season or earlier. And due to the fact that I am watching the 11pmEST news on the television, I do not feel like going up to the attic to confirm my educated guess, but I am positive the two references I mentioned are prior to the 2006-07 season.

The Casebook play listed in the Basketball Regulation above has not changed. The play number, the play itself, and the ruling in both last year's Casebook and this year's Casebook have the same as the one referenced in the Basketball Regulations. That leads us to NFHS R10-S5 which is the Head Coaches' Rule, and Article 1 states: "By state association adoption, the head coach may be off the bench in front of his/her seat within the confines of the designated coaching box, as in 1-13-2, for the purpose of coaching his/her team." I highlighted, in red the essence of the rule; and that is there is no requirement that the head coach must stand in order to utilize the coaching box. Furthermore, the NFHS has never made a ruling that the head coach must stand in order to utilize the coaching box. By rule, I do not know how the KansasHSAA can justify its interpretation of R1-S5-A1, because it cannot.

Its time to go to bed. Night all.

MTD, Sr.

Since they can't squat, I wonder if any bright coach has just planted his fanny on the floor within his box. ;)

Here's the history:

http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=39051

That poster then posted the name, address and phone number of the Kansas grand poobah of basketball. Somebody has emailed said poobah, and the original poster of this thread is asking if the poobah has answered.

Old news, MTD. We've already seen that.

The poster has been banned, so he's not likely to respond.

Wasn't devdog69 from Kansas?

I don't know why you ask or how it could effect the query, but here it goes:
I was born November 5th, 1963, at Susan B. Allen hospital in El Dorado, KS (Butler County). Dr. James Barber was the attending physian. I was the fourth child, but the third surviving child as my mothers first child was still-born. I understand it was a blustery day. I lived in and around Augusta, KS until I was 5 years old. Our family then established a permanent residence 3 miles west of Augusta. I attended Garfield elementary in KG and 1st grade, then switched to Robinson elementary through 6th grade. I was fairly athletic and saw varsity action as a sophmore in basketball and football as an Augusta Oriole. I excelled in track where I competed in the 110m and 330m hurdling events. I finished 6th at the state track meet in 110m HH my junior year, then 3rd in the 330m hurdles my senior year, both at the 5a level. I was involved in a motorcycling accident the summer after highschool and never got tocompete in college athletics. I graduated from Emporia State in 1986. Moved to the Dallas area in 1987. Met an Irving, Texas girl in 1988 and married her in 1990. We have 2 children, now 12 and 7 and live in a comfy, ranch style house with a fire place.

I don't think you really gave us your history.

...um...Sam...I don't think he was asking about your personal history.
But it was nice reading. :)

Best post of both threads. :rolleyes:

I'm sure Sam and the doctor are very happy together.

The general consensus pounded into our heads every year at the annual rules meeting is this: coaches may stand up to coach (within the confines of their "box"), but once they are through with their "coaching" they must go back to their seat. Coaching in the state of Kansas (we have been instructed) does not include quietly standing, kneeling, or pacing about within or outside of the box.

That being said, the general practice when addressing the coaching box in the state of Kansas is "You don't bother me or biatch about my officiating and you can do headstands all day long in your box and I won't bother you."

Is it a little overbearing? Probably, but in past experience it is a great tool to use when coaches start to become a little too testy and have decided to stand in their box right on the sideline and snark at officials as they run up and down the court.

LOL........way to go, Sam.

Thanks for the info, without the nonsense attached to it by the previous banned poster.

If that's the directive from the state, it has to be followed. In real life, if sounds like you're actually calling the box like most other states anyway. We all basically have the same tool available to us anyway. There's no provision anywhere in the rules that will allow any coach at any time to question calls or b!tch at us. It's simply up to each individual official as to what they want to put up with. Mileage certainly varies.

Thanks again. We can put that one to bed now(hopefully).

I don't remember writing a personal bio before. It was kind of amusing doing it off the top of my head. It may be a way to find out what is and was really important to an individual. Re-reading it an hour later, I remembered a few things I might include if I did it again. All in all, a nice opportunity to reminisce.

I just looked at the other thread and KSref07 is listed as a Registered User, not "In Time Out". So maybe he's been allowed back in. Who knows if he'll actually come back or not.

Scrapper, KSRef07 isn't even on the Members List anymore.
Maybe it just shows that way in the old posts?

I didn't check the members list. I'm sure you're right.

Wow, from timeout to banned in one swoop? That's unusual. Wonder if Francine emailed Brad directly?

Not banned. JR and a few others that said "he's not in the member list" are wrong as usual. Just found better things to do than post 6.4 times a day since 2002 like JR. Most of you guys were nice, but the few folks that got personal and close-minded made it not enjoyable. The nit-picking of errors, pouncing on generalizations as if they were scientific statements, etc., the attempt to silence those in disagreement by telling them not to tell "us" what to post (which is telling me what I should post), just got to be too much. Life is too short. Officiating is more about application of the rules than the wording of the rules and this is a concept JR and a few others fail to realize. In application there comes individual judgment - not black and white.

I see Francine has not replied but another ref confirmed. Good to see JR still had to take a potshot at me rather than Man-up and apologize.

BTW, my 300 games a year of which 60% are varsity level - my bad - I did not mean they were interscholastic V games - just V level.

This is my last time visiting. For all the good guys, thanks for the positive private messages. For all the newbies, beware of the answers you get. For the record,
#24 = False
#34 = True
#36 = False

Adios

On behalf of basketball officials everywhere, I thank you.

Wow....lots of hubbub about Kansas.

Makes me queasy about expanding into basketball this year.:p

*Goes back to bury head in rulebook, praying I'm ready by my first game.*

Well this evolved into a surprisingly entertaining thread.

That's why Kansas is here... to entertain the rest of the nation with our coaching box directives and evolution standards and such. :rolleyes:

At least he had the integrity to be honest about the games he works...not pretending that they are something they're not.

If an official works a rec league with 17/18 year-olds, that doesn't make him a varsity ref any more than working 20/21 year-olds makes someone a college ref!

Since we're into personal histories, here's mine FWIW.

I was born on November 3, 1948, the day after the presidential election at Chicago Lying-in Hospital. My home town newspaper, the Chicago Tribune, published the infamous "Dewey Defeats Truman" headline the morning I was born. The hospital is at the University of Chicago and my mother always said I was a lab experiment gone wrong.

We moved to the suburb of Chicago Heights when I was in 3rd grade and I grew up there. I went to Bloom HS (class of 65). Other "famous alumni" include Jerry Colangelo and Jim Bouton. Also, Gary Alan Carr, who was convicted of murder, extortion and kidnapping in conjunction with the Madeline Murray O'Hare family murders a few years ago. Gary and I were buddies in Jr. HS. He ran a stolen bike ring in 7th grade and actually left HS his first year to spend the rest of his boyhood in juvie detention.

In HS I played tennis and was a kicker on the football team (not actually a real player). I started HS at age 12 and was elected president of our Junior Achievement company. At the time, I was the youngest person in the organization's history ever to hold that position.

My life changed dramatically when, while attending Northern Illinois University, I was abducted by aliens and probed for a few years. I was returned to earth where I was not capable of performing any functions other than being an official.

Someday I hope to return to human form.

Way, way, way TMI!!!

I didn't even mention my main mission here on Earth is to eradicate the dreaded Barry Manilow cult. This disease must not spread to the rest of the galaxy. :eek:

It is a shame that some have discouraged KSref from continuing to post on this forum. The argument that developed was silly. I hope that he continues to read the forum and perhaps someday will change his mind and post again. Different viewpoints and opinions help all of us.

Best wishes to KSref for a good season.

Couldn't have said it better. Thanks NV

Are you talking about his stance that dunking in pre-games should be ignored by officials? And his comment that if he was still coaching, he'd make sure that anyone that called a "T" for a pre-game dunk would never work in his gym again?

The argument that developed about that was silly?

The argument about what a coach in Kansas is allowed to do in their coaching was a completely different matter. That's why we e-mailed trying to get some kind of definitive answer. Well, we never did get an answer of any kind. We did get a response from a Kansas official that said that they do have some related language in place, but basically in real life the coaching box in Kansas was being called just about the same way as it was being called in other states---->they don't care what the coach does as long as he stays in the box and leaves the officials alone.

I was referring to the whole "don't tell me what to post" mess.

This story sounds suspicious to me. Who would have voted for you for Junior Achievement president?

Mark's A Hero!!!
 

:confused: Now, I know why I consider this alien/human a hero-o-mine. It doesn't have anything to do with his sense of humor or his use of meds.
The year of our births - 1948.
The state of our high schools - Illinois. (Bloom -1965) (Effingham - 1966).
The place of our college attendance - Northern Illinois University.

No, there's a shortage.

I know this thread may be dead, but I did notice this today when reviewing some stuff for the upcoming season. This is taken off of the KSHSAA website from the page found here: http://www.kshsaa.org/BASKETBALL/PDF...ouncements.pdf

COACHING BOX
The Executive Board has approved the
optional six-foot (6’) coaching box for the
2007-08 season. Only the HEAD COACH
may be off the bench in front of his/her
seat within the confines of the designated
coaches’ box to give instructions to his/
her players and/or substitutes. The head
coach may:
• Stand to instruct (coach) then,
• Sit down
• Not kneel, squat, pace or stand
during a live ball.
Coaches not complying are to be assessed
the appropriate penalty of a technical
foul. Once either a direct or indirect “T”
is assessed, the coach(es) MUST comply
with provisions of Rule 10-5-1 and 10-5-2
for the remainder of the game. Officials
SHALL file the appropriate report on
Loss of Coaching Box Privilege Form
(2007-08 Blue). The form may also be
submitted online by logging into the officials
website.

*wow*
That's what I call keeping the coach in check! 6 feet huh...

I bet it takes the fun out of it though & it must be one helluva transition from HS ball to the college level.

FWIW - our product that year was custom designed doormats! No, I am not kidding. The following year, we sold first aid kits. My junior year, I left J.A. because something else was taking up too much of my time. It's called "girls". :)

Where did you stay on campus? I lived in the Theta Chi house as an independent. I never really wanted to join a frat but I didn't want to live in a dorm with all the "common people", so this seemed like a good compromise.

BTW - where the heck is Effingham and what took you so long to graduate HS? ;)

Yup, we noted that. We also noted your response #18 in this thread where you stated that Kansas officials don't follow that directive anyway. From your response, I took it that Kansas is really not that much different from the rest of the country in real life.