TRAVELING?

[Rookie]

Originally posted by wsisco

He never picks it up or dribbles, but touches it twice rolling it to half-court.

First off let me say that I didn't read all the posts, becuase they seemed to have gotten off topic. But answer me this. Based on the above quote, it appears to me that he directed the ball to half court, would this not be player control?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Rookie

First off let me say that I didn't read all the posts, becuase they seemed to have gotten off topic. But answer me this. Based on the above quote, it appears to me that he directed the ball to half court, would this not be player control?

The rule states that player control exists when a player is dribbling or holding a ball. Personally, I believe that the meaning is that this is how player control is established. He does not have to continue to hold or dribble the ball to maintain PC, as long as nothing occurs that, by rule, would cause the PC to end. Once player control is established and until it ends, a player cannot move his feet outside of prescribed limits.

Reagading this specific play, 4-12-2 states, "A team is in control of the ball when a player of the team is in control, while a live ball is being passed among teammates and during an interrupted dribble. Therefore, in this play, we have traveling.

You really have to study and understand 4-12 to understand player and team control, rather than taking things out of context, which has been done in this thread.

[BktBallRef]

Slider,
Sorry.
I'm tired of humoring you.
I've answered these same questions over and over.
Refer back to my previous replies.
It's pretty clear what my interpretation is.

TH

[Slider]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
"Placing the ball on the floor means the player had player control."
He does not have to continue to hold or dribble the ball to maintain PC, as long as nothing occurs that, by rule, would cause the PC to end.
Once player control is established and until it ends, a player cannot move his feet outside of prescribed limits.

I'm sorry to say that I'm having trouble dissecting you previous answers. So, please reconsider answering them as briefly as possible for this scenario:

Player places ball at feet on floor, releases ball, PAUSEs, then taps ball forward. Player runs (many steps) and grabs ball in both hands.

So, while the ball is on the floor during this PAUSE, does the player have control? YES or NO

If the answer to that is NO, when does he first regain control?

[Edited by Slider on Jan 31st, 2002 at 05:18 PM]

[Hawks Coach]

Tony
I must admit, it took me longer than I thought to straighten out in my head the distinctions you were making in your posts. But I think I see what you are saying.

original sitch: player moves ball along floor, never picks up, no violation because no player control

mj's sitch: player places ball on floor, rolls it along, etc - doesn't matter what comes next, because after he takes two steps he travelled, since his initial holding of the ball established player control which was never subsequently relinquished.

Is this the difference or am I missing something?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Tony
I must admit, it took me longer than I thought to straighten out in my head the distinctions you were making in your posts. But I think I see what you are saying.

original sitch: player moves ball along floor, never picks up, no violation because no player control

mj's sitch: player places ball on floor, rolls it along, etc - doesn't matter what comes next, because after he takes two steps he travelled, since his initial holding of the ball established player control which was never subsequently relinquished.

Is this the difference or am I missing something?

you are not missing a thing! You have it right!

Basically, he's passing the ball to himself, since rolling the ball is considered passing it.

[Slider]

I believe I have been right, but for the wrong reasons. I finally consulted the [NHHS] Rules Book (what a novel concept) -

Special thanks to BktBallRef, mick, Jurassic Referee, and Hawks Coach for "fighting" me on my concepts of player control, passing, and traveling--they showed me the way: But, they may disagree with my new way also; we'll see. Apologies to all I may have confused, especially to Tom Cook and wsisco.

Now the Real Story:

Setting the ball on the floor is a pass (it is a ball which is rolled zero feet). If setting the ball on the floor were not a pass, then a player could not set it on the floor and run away without being called for traveling.

By definition, a pass occurs when you roll, bat, or throw the ball to ANOTHER player. However in order for the traveling rules to work, there are some unwritten properties of the PASS:

1)In addition to players, a pass may be made to the playing court, to OOB, to your own backboard, to either basket, and to SELF.

2)If a player has passed, they cannot be the first to touch that pass after moving their pivot; the violation is traveling.

3)The start of a dribble is not a pass; a try is not a pass; [a fumble is not a pass; dribbling is not passing]

Therefore, all the restrictions which apply to player movement for a player holding the ball, also apply to a player involved in self-passing.

Definition: PLAYER CONTROL is holding or dribbling a live ball [while in-bounds].

Given: A1 is holding the ball.

There are four ways that a ball can leave A1's control: the ball is stripped, the ball is fumbled, the ball is shot, or the ball is passed.

[4-43-3 and 4-43-4 explain how you can legally, intentionally release the ball: try, dribble, or pass.]

So, if A1 is tossing the ball from hand to hand, he is PASSING. While the ball is in the air, he does NOT have PLAYER CONTROL; but, his team retains Team Control.

COMMENT:

Player Control does NOT exist while the ball is in the air untouched, nor while the ball is on the FLOOR untouched [unless it is in the air OR on the floor during a dribble]

In other words; I kicked the part about PLAYER CONTROL [in my previous posts], but, in my defense, clearly a PASS is poorly or incompletely defined.

Comments or Criticisms are welcome!!!

[Edited by Slider on Feb 1st, 2002 at 05:57 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

You got the idea,Slider.The only thing to add is that it now logically follows that you can't have travelling on a tipped rebound because the player never established "player control" first.Good job making us all think on this one!

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Slider
I believe I have been right, but for the wrong reasons. I finally consulted the Rules Book (what a novel concept)

Now if only we could spread your philosophy to coaches around the world

Setting the ball on the floor is a pass (it is a ball which is rolled zero feet).

I have to argue this based on the laws of physics. By the very definition of a spherical object being rolled, you must have net movement. It's not a roll until the center of the spheroid has changed its location.

If setting the ball on the floor were not a pass, then a player could not set it on the floor and run away without being called for traveling.

What rule says this? Are you thinking of the rule where you can't set the ball on the floor, stand up, then pick up the ball again?

By definition, a pass occurs when you roll, bat, or throw the ball to ANOTHER player. However in order for the traveling rules to work, there are some unwritten properties of the PASS:

1)In addition to players, a pass may be made to the playing court, to OOB, to your own backboard, to either basket, and to SELF.

I'd argue that all of those (except for the last one) are attempts to pass the ball to a teammate, but may/may not be successful. (Think of the try/tap which doesn't hit the rim conundrum.)

[Slider]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
If setting the ball on the floor were not a pass, then a player could not set it on the floor and run away without being called for traveling.

What rule says this? Are you thinking of the rule where you can't set the ball on the floor, stand up, then pick up the ball again?

Thanks for the input Mark.

4-43-3 and 4-43-4 only allow you to move your pivot when you try for a goal, start a dribble, or pass; violation traveling. So, if I place a ball on the floor, it better be a pass, otherwise it's a travel when I walk away from the ball.

I get your point that passes are attempts to throw to ANOTHER player; but there are exceptions, if you throw at your backboard, you are sometimes trying to pass to yourself.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Slider

4-43-3 and 4-43-4 only allow you to move your pivot when you try for a goal, start a dribble, or pass; violation traveling. So, if I place a ball on the floor, it better be a pass, otherwise it's a travel when I walk away from the ball.

The basic definition of travelling is moving the feet in excess while holding the ball. Once the ball is placed down, there is no longer any player control, and there cannot be a travelling violation.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Slider
A1 ends his dribble. Stands holding the ball. Tosses the ball in the air, takes MANY steps, then catches the ball. We both agree it is traveling, but: Why is that traveling using your concept?

It's not traveling until the ball returns to the player's hand(s).

[Jurassic Referee]

[/quote][/b]

I have to argue this based on the laws of physics. By the very definition of a spherical object being rolled, you must have net movement. It's not a roll until the center of the spheroid has changed its location.

[/B][/QUOTE]Mark,are you going to Mark T. DeNucci Sr.'s instructional classes now?Little advice for ya--don't drink the Koolaid!

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Mark,are you going to Mark T. DeNucci Sr.'s instructional classes now?Little advice for ya--don't drink the Koolaid!

Nope - just remembering from AP physics.

[Slider]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Originally posted by Slider
4-43-3 and 4-43-4 only allow you to move your pivot when you try for a goal, start a dribble, or pass; violation traveling. So, if I place a ball on the floor, it better be a pass, otherwise it's a travel when I walk away from the ball.

The basic definition of travelling is moving the feet in excess while holding the ball. Once the ball is placed down, there is no longer any player control, and there cannot be a travelling violation.

I didn't make a good reply last time. We agree that you must be in control to travel.

But, 4-43-3 and 4-43-4 explain how you legally, intentionally release the ball: try, dribble, or pass.

[Edited by Slider on Feb 1st, 2002 at 05:45 PM]