Slider,do you have any rules and/or case book plays that will back up your stance that a player is in control while tapping a rebound?Please post them if you have.I will gladly consider them with an open mind.I've been wrong before.

Nothing definitive; I am basing my interpretation on two thiings, a normal dribble may be started without ever catching the ball, and that an "air-dribble" is now an illegal form of dribbling (according to the handbook).

Player control is established by holding the ball or commencing a dribble. An "air dribble" consists of holding the ball, tossing the ball without it striking the floor, and once again holding the ball.

Holding is not necessarily two handed - Dr. J used to always pick up the ball with one big hand and swoop in for the finger roll or the dunk. So one handed holds can occur, also with a hand directly under the ball carrying it. If you believe that the tap is really a one handed hold followed by a toss, you have an air dribble. But if the tap never starts with a clear one handed hold, it is simply a tap and by rule, you have no player control. No player control, no travel.

Slider, if your extreme scenario were to happen, the hand would be under the ball in such a way that you could call it a one handed hold, and then you have a travel in my book. But if it is tapped above the head, as in a rebound, you would be hard pressed in almost all normal situations to say that the tap was actually a hold and throw. If the ball was to visibly pause in the hand showing clear control, and then the player throws it, that is different than a tap and rarely occurs.

I should also add that a players clear ability to control the direction and speed of a tap does not equal player control. Taps are not control. Holding and dribbling are.

There is one other clear case of control, and that is "passing" the ball to yourself.

If you throw the ball to yourself while moving your pivot, then that is a travel; we all agree on that.

If you lost control while that "self-pass" was in the air, then you could tap that "loose" ball to yourself without traveling. So, the ball does not have to be in contact with your body in order for it to be in your control.

The ball only needs to be within your sphere of influence, and either stationary or moving at your command, and returning to you.

BTW, the "air dribble" according to the NFHS Handbook is a tapping just above the fingers, not a tossing.

And, the reason we don't see it anymore is because it is traveling. The ball is being dribbled in the air; no "control" as you define it exists, yet it is traveling.

I guess I mean that to start an air dribble requires a toss into the air. You clearly do not need to control it after your initial toss, as the following contact might be catching or batting the ball.

As for your other clear case of control, you are misunderstanding my point. I am referring to establishing player control, not maintaining control. There are clear rules for when a player establishes control. Neither passing nor tapping are in those rules. To pass to oneself, one must first hold the ball, so player control is not established by passing, but by holding the ball before the pass is made.

[Edited by Hawks Coach on Jan 30th, 2002 at 11:09 PM]

O.K., say he never catches the ball: He "controls" a rebound by tapping it in the air to himself, and then continues tapping it just above his hand at waist level. Since he isn't in control, he can run down the court tapping it (just above his hand). NO TRAVEL

Now, say he did catch the rebound. Then starts tapping it at waist level. Then runs down court tapping it just above his hand. TRAVEL

How can you have a travel in one, and not the other?

These dribble rules operate the same for an "air dribble" and a ground dribble, i.e., if I tap a pass to the ground and keep dribbling, then I have player control, <b>even though I never caught the ball.</b>

The difference is an "air dribble" is traveling: you are moving your pivot, while in control, and you aren't dribbling (legal ground dribbles).

Clear as ink and mud.


[Edited by Slider on Jan 30th, 2002 at 11:51 PM]

Slider
Please rad my full initial post. I never differentiated on the waist high tap. I said you could easily interpret that act alone as a hold (it looks entirely different than your normal rebound tap). You have a hold, followed by air dribbles - traveling. Doesn't matter if you held it first. It sounds to me a lot like a carry in dribbling (hand directly under the ball facing up), so I can't see that if someone chose this ridiculous way of going down the court that you would have to allow it. Then again, I can't imagine why anyone would choose to do this!

Similarly, if a player began a series of taps at one end and kept the ball over his head all the way down the court, at some point in time I would think you could rule that they held it for an instant (and they probably would). However, it would in this case have to be a little more obvious on the control. and once again, because this is not inherently a controlling action, a player is highly unlikely to want to cover the entire court in this manner when they could simply dribble.

Now the normal rebound tap. If it is a tap in a direction, tapper A1 moves to the next point where the ball comes down and is met by a defensive challenger B1, A1 taps again, moves and is met by B2, A1 taps again moves and catches the ball, that is different than trying to navigate the entire court with air dribbles. In this case, there is no player control unless you see a clear act of one-handed catching.

I played water polo, in which only one handed catches are permitted, so they can happen. It would look like a hand extended, meeting the ball and collapsing with it, hand and ball coming to rest with the wrist cocked, and then a throwing movement. And the stop should be pronounced, so that it is clear that the next action is a throw rather than a tap (i.e., it should always be called a tap unless it is obviously and unmistakably a catch first). If you see this catching and throwing action, then you have catch (establishing player control), toss, player movement, and catch - that would be traveling if the ball doesn't contact the floor. But that type of action on a rebound is very rare.

Ball placed on floor
 

Player has control of ball (with dribble still available) and places the ball on the floor, then:
A) taps ball with one hand, steps (more than two) & retrieves ball (with two hands) then begins dribble
B) picks up ball & begins to dribble

Ruling is what & why?

For me:
a & b) I'd call double-dribble before travelling. Player begins the dribble with the placement of the ball to the floor. Can't have travelling while dribbling (play A), so nothing on the roll & walk. Picks up ball, the dribble ends (A & B). Begins dribbling - violation - double dribble.

mj, I would agree with that interpretation. Once put on the floor, it has been dribbled. Pick it up and your dribble is ended, no more dribble allowed.

Re: Ball placed on floor
 

Hey Mike. Never mind the reffing stuff, stick to playinghoops. Get yourself back into this year's dunk competition. You gonna make the playoffs if Rip Hamilton stays hurt? Good luck.

Chuck

Sorry coach, a dribble occurs when a player in control of
the ball pushes, taps, throws or bats the ball to the floor.
Placing the ball on the floor does not constitute the
start of a dribble.

I'm afraid that's not true, gentlemen. Placing the ball on the floor is not a dribble.

4-15-3
The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor.

Notice that the rule does not say that a dribble is started by placing the ball on the floor.

In mj's play A), the player has traveled. In B), we have nothing, legal play.

You beat me to it Dan! :p

I was aware of the rule, I consider putting the ball on the floor to be equivalent to pushing it to the floor. If it is different (which it is for standing up), then you are correct. Seems an odd distinction, but I accept it.