I had a situation last night where during an inbounds pass, it hits the player and he just rolls it down to half court. He never picks it up or dribbles, but touches it twice rolling it to half-court. Is there a violation on this play? I didn't call anything, but I had one coach eating me for supper. Thanks!!

Without seeing this it is hard to say, but I'll try:

The intent of the rule is that IF you are in control of the ball, then you need to either dribble, pass, or shoot it.

If he just kept batting it forward, I got nothin'

If he stopped it on the floor, then I see control. So, if he then rolled it again, I have a travel if he stops it again (after taking steps).

See this thread for something analogous; you will notice that my opinion is not universally shared :-)

http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...?threadid=3893

As slider said, I'd like to see this one...however....

When it hit the player you have nothing since there was no control. According to the book, you can start a dribble by batting the ball so the first touch (the beginning of rolling) was the start of the dribble. Then second touch is still part of the same legal dribble. By your description, the dribble never ended. The player could have picked it up too (thus ending the dribble). I think you made a good "no call."

Z

It's nothing. It's no different than tapping a ball in the air. There's no player control, so that alone means that it isn't traveling.

A player must be holding the ball to travel with 2 exceptions.

1- Throwing a pass to one's self, as described in 4.15.4e

2- Gaining player control while part of the body, other than the hand or knee is touching the floor, placing the ball on the floor, getting up and picking it up as described in 4.43.5b.

Greetings, BktBallRef, we meet again :)

Since you brought up passing, let's look at our disagreement from another view:

A pass occurs when you throw, bat, or ROLL the ball to ANOTHER player (we shall disregard the fact that there is no such thing as self-passing for now).

Anyway, we agree that a player cannot "pass" a ball to himself through the air.

BUT, do you contend that he may place the ball on the floor, and then roll (pass) it to himself?

Do you contend that a player cannot tap a rebound into the air several times, to himself?

[/QUOTE]If the rebounder controls his taps, he is in control of the ball.

[/B][/QUOTE]Do you have a rule that will back up this one?

A player has player control when he is holding or dribbling the ball.
Tapping a pass to the floor is the start of a dribble.
Tapping a rebound in the air in not player control.
Tapping the ball while it's rolling on the floor is not player control.
Placing the ball on the floor means the player had player control.
Then tapping it as it rolled would constitute a self pass and traveling.
This is not what happened in the original post.
There was no player control in the original post.

With the exception of the question that I asked you, all of my replies were addressing the original post in this thread.

This is like asking which came first, the chicken or the egg. As we discussed in a different thread, the rule book does not clearly define player control when a player places the ball on the floor, when he tosses it to himself, or when he passes and retrieves it. Without an example in the case book, I'm inclined not to call traveling. The orignal play is legal. Your play is traveling, based on the case play that I previously cited, 4.15.4e.

I don't think we disagree although you seem to want to. ;)

If a player places the ball on the floor, rolls it and retrieves it, he has gained an advantage and he has traveled. But I don't see an advantage gained when a player places the ball on the floor, bends to tie a shoe, and then picks the ball up again. I don't believe he's traveled. But that's just me.

Let's first make sure we are both talking about the same thing:

If A1 is standing and continuously tapping the ball up with his hand (in a manner eerily reminiscent of the "air dribble"), does this player have control of the ball?

If he previously held or dribbled the ball, then yes, he has PC.

But if this is a rebound, then there is no team or player control until he holds or dribbles the ball. Dennis Rodman made, and spent, millions of dollars doing this.

Yes..no..yes..no..yes..no..yes....(credit to Mick).:D.My answer is the same as BBref's.No control on a rebound.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 30th, 2002 at 05:28 AM]

O.K., say he never catches the ball: He "controls" the rebound by tapping it in the air to himself, and then continues tapping it just above his hand at waist level. Since he isn't in control, he can run down the court tapping it (just above his hand). NO TRAVEL

Now, say he did catch the rebound. Then starts tapping it at waist level. Then runs down court tapping it just above his hand. TRAVEL

How can you have a travel in one, and not the other?

Which brings me back to the ball on the floor, which the player placed at his feet.

If the ball was loose at that point, he could legally tap it forward and then run and pick it up. But, the ball is NOT loose, it is in his control, so it definitely is a travel if he taps it forward and then runs to pick it up.


[Edited by Slider on Jan 30th, 2002 at 06:51 AM]

First, it's pointless to discuss such a silly situation. There are 5 opponents on the floor and they aren't going to let him run down the floor, tapping the ball into the air. Also, it makes no sense to do it when he could dribble and move much faster. But until he has player control, he can't travel.

Because there is player control in one and not the other.

It all goes back to player control. Tapping a ball does not establish player control. You cannot have traveling unless you first have player control.

Gotta go to work. Have a good day! :)

Slider,you can't have player control without team control.R4-12-5 says team control does not exist during the touching of a rebound,but is re-established when a player SECURES control.See casebook 4-12Comment for explanation,too.Now take a look at Casebook 4-15-1SituationA and 4-15-4SituationE.The key phrase in 4-15-1A is"Legal--the dribble does not begin until A1 has gained control".No control=no pivot foot.In 4-15-4E,the player has control and a pivot foot.That's why one is OK,and the other is a travel.Make a little more sense now?

Slider,do you have any rules and/or case book plays that will back up your stance that a player is in control while tapping a rebound?Please post them if you have.I will gladly consider them with an open mind.I've been wrong before.

Nothing definitive; I am basing my interpretation on two thiings, a normal dribble may be started without ever catching the ball, and that an "air-dribble" is now an illegal form of dribbling (according to the handbook).

Player control is established by holding the ball or commencing a dribble. An "air dribble" consists of holding the ball, tossing the ball without it striking the floor, and once again holding the ball.

Holding is not necessarily two handed - Dr. J used to always pick up the ball with one big hand and swoop in for the finger roll or the dunk. So one handed holds can occur, also with a hand directly under the ball carrying it. If you believe that the tap is really a one handed hold followed by a toss, you have an air dribble. But if the tap never starts with a clear one handed hold, it is simply a tap and by rule, you have no player control. No player control, no travel.

Slider, if your extreme scenario were to happen, the hand would be under the ball in such a way that you could call it a one handed hold, and then you have a travel in my book. But if it is tapped above the head, as in a rebound, you would be hard pressed in almost all normal situations to say that the tap was actually a hold and throw. If the ball was to visibly pause in the hand showing clear control, and then the player throws it, that is different than a tap and rarely occurs.

I should also add that a players clear ability to control the direction and speed of a tap does not equal player control. Taps are not control. Holding and dribbling are.

There is one other clear case of control, and that is "passing" the ball to yourself.

If you throw the ball to yourself while moving your pivot, then that is a travel; we all agree on that.

If you lost control while that "self-pass" was in the air, then you could tap that "loose" ball to yourself without traveling. So, the ball does not have to be in contact with your body in order for it to be in your control.

The ball only needs to be within your sphere of influence, and either stationary or moving at your command, and returning to you.

BTW, the "air dribble" according to the NFHS Handbook is a tapping just above the fingers, not a tossing.

And, the reason we don't see it anymore is because it is traveling. The ball is being dribbled in the air; no "control" as you define it exists, yet it is traveling.

I guess I mean that to start an air dribble requires a toss into the air. You clearly do not need to control it after your initial toss, as the following contact might be catching or batting the ball.

As for your other clear case of control, you are misunderstanding my point. I am referring to establishing player control, not maintaining control. There are clear rules for when a player establishes control. Neither passing nor tapping are in those rules. To pass to oneself, one must first hold the ball, so player control is not established by passing, but by holding the ball before the pass is made.

[Edited by Hawks Coach on Jan 30th, 2002 at 11:09 PM]

O.K., say he never catches the ball: He "controls" a rebound by tapping it in the air to himself, and then continues tapping it just above his hand at waist level. Since he isn't in control, he can run down the court tapping it (just above his hand). NO TRAVEL

Now, say he did catch the rebound. Then starts tapping it at waist level. Then runs down court tapping it just above his hand. TRAVEL

How can you have a travel in one, and not the other?

These dribble rules operate the same for an "air dribble" and a ground dribble, i.e., if I tap a pass to the ground and keep dribbling, then I have player control, <b>even though I never caught the ball.</b>

The difference is an "air dribble" is traveling: you are moving your pivot, while in control, and you aren't dribbling (legal ground dribbles).

Clear as ink and mud.


[Edited by Slider on Jan 30th, 2002 at 11:51 PM]

Slider
Please rad my full initial post. I never differentiated on the waist high tap. I said you could easily interpret that act alone as a hold (it looks entirely different than your normal rebound tap). You have a hold, followed by air dribbles - traveling. Doesn't matter if you held it first. It sounds to me a lot like a carry in dribbling (hand directly under the ball facing up), so I can't see that if someone chose this ridiculous way of going down the court that you would have to allow it. Then again, I can't imagine why anyone would choose to do this!

Similarly, if a player began a series of taps at one end and kept the ball over his head all the way down the court, at some point in time I would think you could rule that they held it for an instant (and they probably would). However, it would in this case have to be a little more obvious on the control. and once again, because this is not inherently a controlling action, a player is highly unlikely to want to cover the entire court in this manner when they could simply dribble.

Now the normal rebound tap. If it is a tap in a direction, tapper A1 moves to the next point where the ball comes down and is met by a defensive challenger B1, A1 taps again, moves and is met by B2, A1 taps again moves and catches the ball, that is different than trying to navigate the entire court with air dribbles. In this case, there is no player control unless you see a clear act of one-handed catching.

I played water polo, in which only one handed catches are permitted, so they can happen. It would look like a hand extended, meeting the ball and collapsing with it, hand and ball coming to rest with the wrist cocked, and then a throwing movement. And the stop should be pronounced, so that it is clear that the next action is a throw rather than a tap (i.e., it should always be called a tap unless it is obviously and unmistakably a catch first). If you see this catching and throwing action, then you have catch (establishing player control), toss, player movement, and catch - that would be traveling if the ball doesn't contact the floor. But that type of action on a rebound is very rare.

Ball placed on floor
 

Player has control of ball (with dribble still available) and places the ball on the floor, then:
A) taps ball with one hand, steps (more than two) & retrieves ball (with two hands) then begins dribble
B) picks up ball & begins to dribble

Ruling is what & why?

For me:
a & b) I'd call double-dribble before travelling. Player begins the dribble with the placement of the ball to the floor. Can't have travelling while dribbling (play A), so nothing on the roll & walk. Picks up ball, the dribble ends (A & B). Begins dribbling - violation - double dribble.

mj, I would agree with that interpretation. Once put on the floor, it has been dribbled. Pick it up and your dribble is ended, no more dribble allowed.

Re: Ball placed on floor
 

Hey Mike. Never mind the reffing stuff, stick to playinghoops. Get yourself back into this year's dunk competition. You gonna make the playoffs if Rip Hamilton stays hurt? Good luck.

Chuck

Sorry coach, a dribble occurs when a player in control of
the ball pushes, taps, throws or bats the ball to the floor.
Placing the ball on the floor does not constitute the
start of a dribble.

I'm afraid that's not true, gentlemen. Placing the ball on the floor is not a dribble.

4-15-3
The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor.

Notice that the rule does not say that a dribble is started by placing the ball on the floor.

In mj's play A), the player has traveled. In B), we have nothing, legal play.

You beat me to it Dan! :p

I was aware of the rule, I consider putting the ball on the floor to be equivalent to pushing it to the floor. If it is different (which it is for standing up), then you are correct. Seems an odd distinction, but I accept it.

First off let me say that I didn't read all the posts, becuase they seemed to have gotten off topic. But answer me this. Based on the above quote, it appears to me that he directed the ball to half court, would this not be player control?

The rule states that player control exists when a player is dribbling or holding a ball. Personally, I believe that the meaning is that this is how player control is established. He does not have to continue to hold or dribble the ball to maintain PC, as long as nothing occurs that, by rule, would cause the PC to end. Once player control is established and until it ends, a player cannot move his feet outside of prescribed limits.

Reagading this specific play, 4-12-2 states, "A team is in control of the ball when <b>a player of the team is in control, while a live ball is being passed among teammates</b> and during an interrupted dribble. Therefore, in this play, we have traveling.

You really have to study and understand 4-12 to understand player and team control, rather than taking things out of context, which has been done in this thread.

Slider,
Sorry.
I'm tired of humoring you. :p
I've answered these same questions over and over.
Refer back to my previous replies.
It's pretty clear what my interpretation is. ;)

TH

I'm sorry to say that I'm having trouble dissecting you previous answers. So, please reconsider answering them as briefly as possible for this scenario:

Player places ball at feet on floor, releases ball, PAUSEs, then taps ball forward. Player runs (many steps) and grabs ball in both hands.

So, while the ball is on the floor during this PAUSE, does the player have control? YES or NO

If the answer to that is NO, when does he first regain control?

[Edited by Slider on Jan 31st, 2002 at 05:18 PM]

Tony
I must admit, it took me longer than I thought to straighten out in my head the distinctions you were making in your posts. But I think I see what you are saying.

original sitch: player moves ball along floor, never picks up, no violation because no player control

mj's sitch: player places ball on floor, rolls it along, etc - doesn't matter what comes next, because after he takes two steps he travelled, since his initial holding of the ball established player control which was never subsequently relinquished.

Is this the difference or am I missing something?

you are not missing a thing! You have it right! :)

Basically, he's passing the ball to himself, since rolling the ball is considered passing it.

Legal Self Pass
 

I believe I have been right, but for the wrong reasons. I finally consulted the [NHHS] Rules Book (what a novel concept) - :)

Special thanks to BktBallRef, mick, Jurassic Referee, and Hawks Coach for "fighting" me on my concepts of player control, passing, and traveling--they showed me the way: But, they may disagree with my new way also; we'll see. Apologies to all I may have confused, especially to Tom Cook and wsisco.

Now the Real Story:

Setting the ball on the floor is a pass (it is a ball which is rolled zero feet). If setting the ball on the floor were not a pass, then a player could not set it on the floor and run away without being called for traveling.

By definition, a pass occurs when you roll, bat, or throw the ball to ANOTHER player. However in order for the traveling rules to work, there are some unwritten properties of the PASS:

1)In addition to players, a pass may be made to the playing court, to OOB, to your own backboard, to either basket, and to SELF.

2)If a player has passed, they cannot be the first to touch that pass after moving their pivot; the violation is traveling.

3)The start of a dribble is not a pass; a try is not a pass; [a fumble is not a pass; dribbling is not passing]

Therefore, all the restrictions which apply to player movement for a player holding the ball, also apply to a player involved in self-passing.

Definition: PLAYER CONTROL is holding or dribbling a live ball [while in-bounds].

Given: A1 is holding the ball.

There are four ways that a ball can leave A1's control: the ball is stripped, the ball is fumbled, the ball is shot, or the ball is passed.

[4-43-3 and 4-43-4 explain how you can legally, intentionally release the ball: try, dribble, or pass.]

So, if A1 is tossing the ball from hand to hand, he is PASSING. While the ball is in the air, he does NOT have PLAYER CONTROL; but, his team retains Team Control.

COMMENT:

Player Control does NOT exist while the ball is in the air untouched, nor while the ball is on the FLOOR untouched [unless it is in the air OR on the floor during a dribble]

<i>In other words; I kicked the part about PLAYER CONTROL [in my previous posts], but, in my defense, clearly a PASS is poorly or incompletely defined.</i>

Comments or Criticisms are welcome!!!

[Edited by Slider on Feb 1st, 2002 at 05:57 PM]

You got the idea,Slider.The only thing to add is that it now logically follows that you can't have travelling on a tipped rebound because the player never established "player control" first.Good job making us all think on this one!

Re: Legal Self Pass
 

Now if only we could spread your philosophy to coaches around the world :)



I have to argue this based on the laws of physics. By the very definition of a spherical object being rolled, you must have net movement. It's not a roll until the center of the spheroid has changed its location.



What rule says this? Are you thinking of the rule where you can't set the ball on the floor, stand up, then pick up the ball again?


I'd argue that all of those (except for the last one) are attempts to pass the ball to a teammate, but may/may not be successful. (Think of the try/tap which doesn't hit the rim conundrum.)

Re: Re: Legal Self Pass
 

Thanks for the input Mark.

4-43-3 and 4-43-4 only allow you to move your pivot when you try for a goal, start a dribble, or pass; violation traveling. So, if I place a ball on the floor, it better be a pass, otherwise it's a travel when I walk away from the ball.

I get your point that passes are attempts to throw to ANOTHER player; but there are exceptions, if you throw at your backboard, you are sometimes trying to pass to yourself.

Re: Re: Re: Legal Self Pass
 

The basic definition of travelling is moving the feet in excess while holding the ball. Once the ball is placed down, there is no longer any player control, and there cannot be a travelling violation.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Legal Self Pass
 

It's not traveling until the ball returns to the player's hand(s).

Re: Re: Legal Self Pass
 

[/quote][/b]

I have to argue this based on the laws of physics. By the very definition of a spherical object being rolled, you must have net movement. It's not a roll until the center of the spheroid has changed its location.

[/B][/QUOTE]Mark,are you going to Mark T. DeNucci Sr.'s instructional classes now?Little advice for ya--don't drink the Koolaid!:D

Re: Re: Re: Legal Self Pass
 

Nope - just remembering from AP physics.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Legal Self Pass
 

I didn't make a good reply last time. We agree that you must be in control to travel.

But, 4-43-3 and 4-43-4 explain how you legally, intentionally release the ball: try, dribble, or pass.

[Edited by Slider on Feb 1st, 2002 at 05:45 PM]

Just for clarification, in two of the posts above, people tried to give a definition of player control. One said it is holding or dribbling a ball. The other said it is holding or dribbling a live ball. Actually, it's holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

If it wasn't, you would have player control, and therefore team control, during throw-ins, etc.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Legal Self Pass
 

Not to be overly anal about this, but 4-43 says nothing about player control being relinquished. Dribbling DOES NOT relinquish control - it is one of the only two ways a player may be in control (4-12-1). Dribbling is the way you may legally move (both feet - and return them to the floor - for you equally anal types!) while in control. And it is differentiated from try or pass because you may not lift the pivot foot before dribbling. And with a try or pass, you do relinquish control.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Legal Self Pass
 

Good points, Thanks!!! Also, thanks to Mark Padgett and Mark Dexter above.

I fixed my most recent posts to reflect your comments.