correctable error?
 

B1 is fouled by A1 during a field goal try with 3 seconds remaining in the 4th quarter.Team A is up by 2 points. By mistake, the official steps in and says 1-1 instead of 2 FT's. B1 shoots the first FT and misses the FT attempt. B2 secures the rebound and scores a 2 pt basket on a tap before time expires. AFter time expired to end the fourth quarter, the scorer then notifys the referee that B1 should had shot 2 FT's instead of a 1-1. The referee then begins the OT period by giving B1 his second FT and play continues from there. Was this correctable error administered properly? Rule reference for this sit. will be appreciated.

Before I can answer this, I need to know who was shooting, A or B.

I'm not sure what difference it makes (assuming the play is "correct" that the error is 1-1 v. 2, and not 1-1 v. 0 for a PC foul).

In any event, start the OT with the FT, then resume with a jump ball.

How can this FT be part of the OT, rather than part of the 4th quarter?

I'd like to start off with JR's smart-alek "Say WHAT??:confused: :confused: "

but after being wrong twice in an hour yesterday, I'm not going to be that glib. BUt I really think I'm right that it makes a huge difference, and your assumption is a huge one.

If B1 was shooting, it was correct to give the second shot. If A1 was shooting, then PC and the second shot was NOT correct. Um... right??:confused: :confused:

We are told in the OP that B1 was awarded 1-1, rather than 2. I read that this means 2 shots was the proper penalty. So who the shooter was is not relevant, is it? IOW, it is a given that it should have been two shots.

It doesn't say who was shooting, so if A was shooting, then 2 shots is not the proper penalty and B1 being awarded 1-1 rather than 2 was an uber-mistake. A mistake with a mistaken correction. The reason I'm wondering is that normally A is the team with the ball, and since this was written backward of that, I'm just wondering if everyone got totally confused when the foul was given out, forgetting that a PC foul gets no shots, which is after all a fairly common and completely understandable mistake.

B1 was shooting

Okay, fine. Forget I said anhything.

:D

I can see where the confusion comes in - usually A is considered on offense. But welref is saying B1 is shooting, and is fouled by A1.

Going back to the original sitch - team A is up by 2 points, team B is shooting and gets fouled, official mistakenly awards 1-and-1 instead of 2 shots to B. B misses the FT, gets the rebound and scores, to tie up the game. Somewhere right after that, the horn sounds, then the table informs the officials that B should've had 2 shots, not a 1-and-1.

What we don't know is exactly what happened after the put-back basket and before the final horn. In order the officials to correct the error, it must be discovered during the first dead ball following the clock starting. So, the clock started with the rebound, the basket by B counts, but when did the horn go off? If it went off while A was getting the ball for the throw-in, we can correct the error. But, if A had the ball, and had already thrown it in, or was in the process of throwing it in, aren't we past the time allowed to correct the error?

I tend to believe to free throw should be part of the 4th quarter, not administered to start the overtime. 5.6 Comment A states "The free throw(s) is a part of that quarter or extra period and, if a tie is involved, the result of the free throw(s) will determine whether additional play is required."

5.6 Comment B relates to a technical foul called after the ball has become dead to end a quarter. If the score is tied, you start the overtime with 2 free throws and the ball for the offended team. If the score is not tied, you administer the free throws as part of the 4th quarter, to determine whether an overtime is necessary.

NF rules....

That would be correct...if the period ended prior to A having the ball ready for throw-in, then it is correctable. If A is ready to throw in prior to the quarter ending, then the ball has become dead then live again, and it is too late to correct the error.

Very good point, once A has the ball for throw-in that ball is live and now it is too late to correct. Assuming that B makes the put back just as time expires, however, and this error is still correctable...NFHS 10.5 indicates that "points scored, consumed time and additional activity...shall not be nullified", so we can't wipe the two points off. So now we have a tie game going to overtime...the question then is do we attempt this free throw as part of the 4th quarter, or does it start the overtime...my gut tells me that we start the OT with one free throw and then a jump ball, does not seem right that we would penalize A by rewarding B with 2 points PLUS another free throw, but I don't see this specifically addressed in the new casebook..

I hear you Frank, but since 5.6A does not specifically mention correctable errors, I would be hesitant to apply it in this case...not saying you are wrong, I would just like to see this specific case addressed before I would apply this...I will grant that it does seem to make sense to make it part of the 4th quarter, it just seems grossly unfair to team A in the example, we just gave B a 3 point play because of our error? And decided the game because of it?

Assuming no player from Team A had the ball at his/her disposal for a throw-in prior to time expiring in the fourth quarter, the error is correctable. Since there was no change of possession after the error (the ball became dead and there was no chance for a Team A throw-in), we would normally line up for one free throw and play off the make or miss. However, since time has expired, there will be no rebound, so no players will line up along the lane. If B1 makes the free throw, the game is over.

This situation is different from a technical being called after the expiration of time. In that case, if the game is tied, the free throws are shot to start the OT.

But in the correctable error situation, the fourth quarter is not completed until the free throws and all related activity are completed. In this case, all the free throws of the fourth quarter were not attempted. So the corrected free throw is part of the fourth quarter.

My initial thought was the Op was correctly applied with regulation ending with a tie and starting OT with a FT. However, if the score was not tied, lets say down by one, wouldnt you have to shoot the unawarded FT as part of the 4th quarter to determine if you would have OT? If that is the case, why wouldnt it be part of the 4th in this OP too? I agree it is unfair tho....

I think that "the ball going through the basket" is the same as "a held ball with the arrow pointing to the other team" as in 2.10.1A. That is, both result in a "change of possession" for the correctable error rule. So, no matter when we shoot the FTs, no one is on the line, and we're resuming from someplace other than the merited FT.

5-6, exception 3: "No penalty or part of a penalty carries over from one quarter or extra period to the next except when a correctable error as in 2-10 is rectified.

According to 5-6, the quarter has ended, and none of the exceptions applies. So, we're going to play OT.

Interesting. I'm going to have to think about this for a bit. . .

I do not have my new books with me to see if the wording on Exception 3 changed, but 2006-07 rules online state the following:

5-6
<TABLE cellSpacing=4 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=nfhsMainFtMd vAlign=top colSpan=6>Art. 2... Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal sounds indicating time has expired.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=nfhsMainFtSmBld style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 3px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3px; PADDING-TOP: 3px"> </TD><TD class=nfhsMainFtSmBld vAlign=top align=left colSpan=5>EXCEPTIONS:</TD></TR><TR><TD class=nfhsMainFtSmBld style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 3px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3px; PADDING-TOP: 3px"> </TD><TD class=nfhsMainFtSmBld vAlign=top align=middle colSpan=2>1.</TD><TD class=nfhsMainFtSm vAlign=top colSpan=3>If the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal, the quarter or extra period ends when the try or tap ends.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=nfhsMainFtSmBld style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 3px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3px; PADDING-TOP: 3px"> </TD><TD class=nfhsMainFtSmBld vAlign=top align=middle colSpan=2>2.</TD><TD class=nfhsMainFtSm vAlign=top colSpan=3>If a held ball or violation occurs so near the expiration of time that the clock is not stopped before time expires, the quarter or extra period ends with the held ball or violation.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=nfhsMainFtSmBld style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 3px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3px; PADDING-TOP: 3px"> </TD><TD class=nfhsMainFtSmBld vAlign=top align=middle colSpan=2>3.</TD><TD class=nfhsMainFtSm vAlign=top colSpan=3>If a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires or after time expires, but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal. The quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed. No penalty or part of a penalty carries over from one quarter or extra period to the next. No free throw(s) shall be attempted after time has expired for the fourth quarter or any extra period, unless the point(s) would affect the outcome of the game.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=nfhsMainFtSmBld style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 3px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3px; PADDING-TOP: 3px"> </TD><TD class=nfhsMainFtSmBld vAlign=top align=middle colSpan=2>4.</TD><TD class=nfhsMainFtSm vAlign=top colSpan=3>If a technical foul occurs after the ball has become dead to end a quarter or extra period, the next quarter or extra period is started by administering the free throws. This applies when the foul occurs after any quarter has ended, including the fourth quarter, provided there is to be an extra period. If there is no way to determine whether there will be an extra period until the free throws are administered, the free throws are attempted immediately, as if the foul had been part of the preceding quarter.


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

As Bob said, you are missing the addition that was made to the rule in this year's rule book. New language was added to include a correctable error.

Therefore we are NOT to take into account that the correctable error could make a difference in the tie at end of regulation?
If the score was not tied and the resulting FT could create a tied game, then and only then do we shoot them immediately?

I think you are confusing two issues:

1) You only shoot free throws at the end of regulation/OT if they "matter" in determining or potentially determining the outcome of the game.

2) Once regulation has ended, you cannot "go back" to the 4th quarter to correct an error. You correct it to begin the OT.

If the error had been discovered prior to regulation ending, then you WOULD attempt the free throw which could determine the outcome of the game. I believe the kicker here is that the error was not discovered until regulation had ended.

I had not noticed this before this thread. Let's put another mark in the unannounced changes column. Unfortunately, the NFHS provides no guidance whatsoever for us regarding this new change.

Therefore, I'm not sure how the new rule about correcting an error after a quarter has ended works, but I would like to point out that the ball has not yet become live in the next period. Thus there is an important rule and case play that we must consider.

5-7-4 . . . Once the ball becomes live in the extra period, it will be played even though a correction in the fourth quarter score is made.

OVERTIME CONTINUES
5.7.4 SITUATION: The score is tied at the end of regulation time. During the overtime period, the official scorer informs the referee that Team A had an additional point in the fourth quarter that was not counted. In (a), the referee reviews the scorebook and recognizes where a point was not properly credited to Team A; or (b) the referee does not have definite knowledge that a point was not credited to Team A. RULING: In (a), the referee adds a point to Team A's score. In (b), the referee does not add a point to Team A's score. In either case, the referee continues the overtime period to completion. (2-11-11)

So we know that once we start an extra period we must finish it, even if there is a scoring correction made. However, there is also a ruling that tells us not to play the extra period if the correction is made prior to its start.

2006-07 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 10: The score is tied at the end of regulation time. During the intermission between the fourth quarter and the beginning of the overtime period, the official scorer advises the referee that A1's three-point goal earlier in the fourth quarter was recorded in the scorebook improperly as a two-point goal. The referee verifies the mistake. RULING: The game is over and Team A has won. Since the ball had not yet become live in the overtime period, it need not be played. (2-11-11; 5-3; 5-7-4)

This ruling makes more sense to me. I would correct the error and not play the extra period if the score was no longer tied.

Me either, which is why I answered the way I did originally.

I agree, but I can see the reasoning for doing it as part of the OT. I'll have to talk to some higher-ups around here and see what they come up with.

That would be a select group, right?

That was low.

That's why he said it, so it wouldn't go over some people's heads.

Let me re-phrase this to ensure I understand the ruling. Team A leads by 2 points. B1 was fouled in the act of shooting, but was sent to the line to shoot 1-and-1? B1 misses the shot, and B2 tips it in, then the buzzer sounds. The score is tied, so we go to OT. The official discovers the error, since the basket was scored, it still counts, since all awarded points prior to the correctable error count. Since B1 has earned a second free throw, it is shot as part of the OT period. Is that summary correct?

This is not really equitable, since B2 should not have been able to score a basket after the first miss. If the officials had made the correct call, B1 would have had to miss the second free throw as well if B2 were to have the opportunity to tie the game. In other words, the corrected situation is creating a score that could not have possibly happened if the FTs had been administered properly. If B1 had made the second FT, A would have had the ball and B would have presumably lost. If B1 had missed the second FT as well, B2 might have had the chance to still tip in the rebound, but there would have been no makeup FT. A bit of a hole in the correctable errors procedure, but I hope I understand the reasoning properly.

My view: The correctable error rule isn't designed to be "equitable." It's designed so EVERYONE (both teams and the officials) has an incentive to "fix" the error before it occurs. If you wait, what looks like an advantage can cause you to get screwed.

No. No longer correctable. On the rebound, the ball was live and the clock started. On the make by B2, the ball became dead. At the time of the next live ball, its too late. In this case time expired before the ball became live. To start OT, the ball became live again...correction opportunity over. If A had taken the ball out for a throwin after B2's make, it would also be too late.

Camron,
1. The fourth quarter ended with the made goal and before the opponent could get the ball for a throw-in.
2. The error is caught prior to the ball becoming live in the extra period.

Now what is your opinion?

What error? :p

We're going to OT...starting with the FT that was merited...then the jump ball.

When the 4th quarter ends in a tie, OT will be played unless there is an error in the score book that can be rectified. This is not a scorebook error. Without making the ball live again (for the FT), you can't make a correction.

Perhaps I should have written that the horn sounded to indicate the expiration of time in the 4th quarter following the goal, but before the ball became live for the ensuing throw-in instead of what I wrote above as #1.

Now the question is has the 4th quarter really ended yet?

5-6-2 is clear, but exception 3 is of interest. Of course, there was no foul, so exception 3 likely doesn't apply, but "all related activity" certainly have not been completed.

So when the ball is made live again to correct the error is that the first live ball of the extra period or is still part of the fourth quarter?

This is a very instructive thread. I wouldn't be surprised to see a clarification from the NFHS.

I see this as being similar to a T being called AFTER the horn sounds with the game tied. It is part of OT. Once the 4th Qtr. ends in a tie, you don't open it back up for more scoring. You make corrections in the book, but don't make the ball live again.

IMO a T being called after the horn sounds and catching a Correctable Error within the allowed time frame are not similar at all. Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set aside according to 2-10-1. In order to correct any of the officials’ errors listed in Article 1, such error must be recognized by an official no later than during the first dead ball after the clock has properly started. That error has been recognized and the clock will not start again; IMO this is correctable NOW. If the additional FT breaks the tie, there should not be an OT. Per rule 2-5-7 we are to approve the score at the end of each half.... how can we do that if there is a correctable error that can still be corrected?
However, all that said, I had rather play OT in all fairness to both teams due to the official's error and would probably rule it that way for that reason alone. Unless someone (NFHS) confirms the correct answer to this situation.:confused:

I agree with that.

The T after the quarter has ended clearly has nothing to do with that quarter, so it starts the next. However, an error that was made within the quarter and is caught during the dead ball after the horn definitely has to do with that quarter. It even seems to me that it has a lot more to do with that quarter than the next one.

BTW if this were to occur at the end of the 2nd quarter, at which basket would we administer the FT? The one the team was using in the first half or the one that they will be shooting at in the 2nd half.

I recall that we had such a thread on here a while back.

Ha, if we are shooting the merited FT with the lanes clear and then going to AP for 3rd period, I really do not see that it matters. We will shoot to the correct team basket either way. I would apply it to the 2nd quarter and shoot at that basket, go to half time, and continue play as usual.:)