Throw-in violation or OOB violation?
 

Team A is awarded a throw-in on a sideline of the court at the FT line extended in the backcourt. A1 steps OOB and the official administers the ball. A1 passes the ball on the OOB side of the boundary plane to the other end of the court and A2 runs over and catches the ball while it is still on the OOB side of the boundary plane, but has placed one foot OOB prior to catching the ball, so that when he makes contact with the ball he has one foot inbounds and one foot OOB at the 28 foot line in the frontcourt.

Is this a throw-in violation per 9-2-3 or an OOB violation per 9-3-2? It seems that both rules would apply equally to the situation. Does one take precedence over the other? More importantly where is the throw-in for Team B following the violation? Is it from the FT line extended in Team B's frontcourt or from the 28 foot line in their backcourt?

Does 9-2-2 also apply? The thrower did not pass the ball directly into the court. Perhaps it takes precedence over 9-2-3 and 9-3-2?

I think my initial reaction in a game is to rule this OOB, as paying attention to whether the ball is thrown onto the court or stays outside the boundary is not something I'm accustomed to looking at closely, but I'm thinking the correct call here is throw-in violation, with B getting the throw-in at the original spot.

I'd say this is a throw-in violation, as the ball was not passed directly onto the court. Being a spot throw-in, the ball couldn't be passed among teammates OOB.

Ball to Team B at the spot of the original throw (and Team A loses the arrow if this was an AP throw-in).

Didn't we go round and round with a similar discussion before??

I'm going to add that I'm confident this is a throw-in violation, though I'm not sure if 9-2-2 or 9-2-11 applies. No teammate of the thrower shall be out of bounds after a designated-spot throw-in begins.

Seems to me that the act of catching the ball doesn't matter, as the ball should already be dead. The only question is whether it's for not throwing the ball directly onto the court or for A2 stepping OOB after the throw-in begins.

jdw - 9-2-3 gives it to you. The thrown ball shall not be touched by a teammate of the thrower while the ball is on the out-of-bounds side of the throw-in boundary-line plane (except as in 7-5-7)

9-2-11 refers to the opponent touching the ball on the OOB side of the line.

I'd make it a throw-in violation, and return the ball to the original spot.

Actually, PYRef, 9-2-11 says No teammate of the thrower shall be out of bounds after a designated-spot throw-in begins.

Therefore, the teammate has violated prior to catching the ball.

No, because the rule specifically allows the thrower to throw the ball so that it touches any player on the court; in bounds or out of bounds. 9-2-2 cannot apply here.

All that matters is the blue font. 9-2-3

Red font is irrelevant.
A2 foot InB or OOB does not matter because 9-2-3 occured.

Throw in violation. B ball where A1 was at.

I guess you have to determine: When did the violation actually occur? Could the ball ,while it was in the air on the OOB side of the line, curve back into the court? Or was it thrown at such an angle that it could have bounced in bounds, all the way down by the other end line. These are possibilities. No violation actually occured untill the ball was touched by the OOB teammate. I'd give B the ball at the spot where it was touched.

Actually, I differ with this statement, as in the OP A2 stepped OOB prior to catching the ball. As I read it, this is a direct violation of 9-2-11, as A2 is OOB prior to the throw-in ending.

This is the answer. We have talked about this before.

But, the throw-in ends when the ball is released by the thrower. So, the player being OOB is not a 9-2-11 violation.

Agreed. And, even though in the OP A2 was on the same OOB line as the thrower, that is not required for this violation. The prohibition is against being OOB anywhere during a throwin.

So, change the situation to an endline throwin after a goal. A2 goes streaking down the court for a potential fast break but the pass is too long. Knowing B will get the ball under their own basket, A2 catches up to the ball before it goes OOB, but is himself OOB prior to touching the ball.

We're still going back to the spot where A1 released the pass; unless it was deflected on the way. :)

No, the throwin doesn't end until the ball is legally touched inbounds or the throwin team violates.

4-42-5: The throw-in ends when the passed ball touches, or is legally touched by, another player who is either inbounds or out of bounds, except as in 7-5-7.

The throw-in count ends when the ball is released, but the throw-in is not over until the ball is touched, therefore I don't see how 9-2-11 doesn't apply.

9-2-11??

May want to re-read that then.....A2 is not an opponent(s)

I'm gonna ask a silly question - are we reading the same 9-2-11? Because in my 07-08 Rule Book, it says:

No teammate of the thrower shall be out of bounds after a designated-spot throw-in begins.

And, maybe you're confusing with 9-2-10 which deals with an opponent of the thrower being beyond the boundary-line plane...

Exactly. Also; restrictions on the thrower end with the release; except for the fact that the thrower cannot be first to touch the ball after she releases the pass onto the court.

I agree with the throw-in violations but came about it in a different manner...I guess you'll tell me if this wasn't logical.

I asked myself if the clock would have ever started...If the answer is no then you have to go back to original inbound spot because you never had a legal throw-in. If the answer is yes then you felt that the throw in was "legal" and that the ball went OOB where A2 recieved it. My logic, however warped you think it may seem gave me only one conclusion, throw-in violation.

I know that might seem like a different way to conclude the ruling, but I think it makes sense, doesn't it?

Good grief, who cares?? It's a violation, turn the ball over and let's go.

Not to be argumentative, but it could matter a lot when determining where to give B their throw-in...

I think it works for this scenario, but it wouldn't work for all.
Example: A1 throws the ball towards A2 on a spot throwin. A2's first touch is an intentional kick (for whatever reason). The clock never starts here, but the violation puts the ball nearest A2's kick, not at the original spot.

I agree and was only using it toward this situation....just stating that, in this case, the question can be answered with relative ease by just using common sense judgement...If that makes any sense.

Amen, Rain!

This is the exact kind of question I messed with on the exam. Made my head hurt!! Better to just say true and move on! :) As discussed here it can be looked at in a number of ways.....

That's a point I suppose. Good point. Hmmm... Okay, I think that it's a throw-in violation on the basis that when A2 stepped oob, before retrieving the ball, the ball became dead. Or when A2 reached through the plane before touching the ball. Or when the ball never crossed inbounds before it was touched by A2. Yup, that's my story and I"m sticking to it. Throw-in violation, ball to Bl at the point where it was thrown.

Sorry for any confusion, I referred to the '06-'07 rules book. I guess I didn't realize they change the sections as much as they do each year.

OK, let's modify the play a little bit to isolate the real question that is being asked in this thread:

A1 steps OOB for a throw-in following a made goal by B. A1 passes the ball on the OOB side of the boundary plane to the corner of the court where A2 catches the ball while it is still on the OOB side of the boundary plane. A2 also has one foot inbounds and one foot touching the OOB line (but on the side line).

This play removes the issue of the player being OOB during the throwin and makes it a question solely about whether catching the ball before it crosses the line takes precedence over catching the ball while the player has OOB status.
A2's OOB location could just as well be the endline but then that would introduce the possibility of A1 trying to pass to A2 for a legal throwin but A2 didn't get all the way OOB....so I wanted to eliminate that from the equation:

I screwed this up. Change this to a spot throwin in the backcourt since during an end-line throwin, A2 is not restricted from being out of bounds.

Frankly Camron, I really don't care. There's a violation in there somewhere. I'm blowing my whistle, giving the ball to B, and getting on with the game. This scenario just constitutes overthinking, IMO.

...and switching the arrow if the throw-in happened to be an AP throw-in.

Juulie's right (as usual). I don't care if you call it a balk or icing, blow the damn whistle and get on with the game. Yeah - like some coach is going to know the intricacies of the rules down to this level. :rolleyes:

Does the TBA have a special mechanic for those calls? Gotta get it right, if I"m gonna be working with you!

Agree with the above but like questions like this...makes you think and keeps me coming back to visit the site. There are a lot of topics on here that you could make up an answer to and no one would be the wiser...I think it's the effort of most who post here to be "correct" on rules and interpretations that makes it fun to post and read here.:)

But the difference in the throwin spot could matter....2 seconds to go in a 1 point game and the team getting the ball is the team down by one. Do they want the ball literally in the corner (the hardest place form which to make a throwin) or at the FT lane extended...perhaps on the other side where they have a great play to run. The one you chose could have a dramatic impact.

As Howard says, "Call me when you call that one." IOW, I'm gonna spend my energy worrying about other more likely difficulties.

Where does B get the ball for the throw-in?

What if there's 1.5 seconds left in a tie game? Would it then matter where B gets the throw-in?

I think there's really no discussion on whether it's a violation, it's just which type of violation, and therefore, where is the ball put in play.

Dang it, Cameron types faster than me.

This is exactly the point. You can't say "who cares just put the ball in" if you don't know where to put the ball in. Does it always make a huge difference to the game? No. Might it eventually make a huge difference to the game? Yes. Does it always make sense to know where the ball goes regardless of whether it makes any difference to the game? I think so.

edit...I get third place!!

Interesting topic discussion, but Julie is right.


And if it comes down to 1.5 seconds left in the McDonald's All_American super bowl of basketball, nationally televised game, with hundreds of millions watching, and a 7th grade "C" coach's job is on the line......I'll defer to whatever my partner calls.

I certainly understand this sentiment and agree that this particular situation isn't very likely.

However, just as the NFHS test is tough because of the situations and how it requires you to actually know the rule, these posts are what make this board interesting and worth coming to. I know for me (and I've been absent since last spring until recently) I love this forum just because of these discussions. Not because I think I'll face this particular situation, but because understanding how to think through this situation and others like it help regardless of what scenario unfolds.

That, and is the board really so crazy-full of info and fast-moving threads that we can't have a meaningless, overly-analytical discussion?!? :D

Day late and a dollar short to this discussion, and don't know if this helps or not since this case doesn't specify that the inbounds pass remains OOB, but here's the wording from the NFHS website:

SITUATION 3: During an alternating-possession throw-in for Team A, thrower A1 passes the ball directly on the court where it contacts (a) A2 or (b) B2, while he/she is standing on a boundary line. RULING: Out-of-bounds violation on (a) A2; (b) B2. The player was touched by the ball while out of bounds, thereby ending the throw-in. The alternating-possession arrow is reversed and pointed toward Team B's basket when the throw-in ends (when A2/B2 is touched by the ball). A throw-in is awarded at a spot nearest the out-of-bounds violation for (a) Team B; (b) Team A. (4-42-5; 6-4-4; 9-2-2; 9-3-2)

Hope that helps.

IMO it doesn't matter whether it is 9-2-3 or 9-2-11. Either way it is a throw-in violation and according to the 9-2 PENALTY (section 2) the ball is awarded to the opponents for a throw in at the original throw-in spot.

Now that I'll agree with.

And now this has me re-thinking the entire thread - how can A1 be standing OOB when he/she received the ball and not have already violated?

Argh.

Uh, if you're talking about my revised case, you're incorrect. One is an only OOB violation. The real question is not attempting to address whether to call the violation on A2 for being OOB during a spot throwin (clearly this happens before anything else and there is no complication). The real question that needs to be answered is what to call when A2 is legally OOB (but also touching inbounds) when they catch a thrown ball on the OOB side of the throwin plane. You've got three choices: (1) OOB violation on A2, (2) Throwin violation for A2 catching the ball on the OOB side of the throwin plane, and (3) throwin violation for A2 carrying the throwin onto the court (A2 is a thrower who should have been entirely OOB).

All are violations that give B the ball, but #1 and #3, give them the ball at the point of the touch where the other is the point of the throw.

I'm actually quite happy for you to feel that way! For as rare as this is likely to be (but not really that improbable) there can be other things more worthty spending effort and thought on.

I was addressing the OP here. Your revised situation does change things.

While this would be a violation it is not correct because it is not the first violation. If the ball was caught on the inbounds side of the court this would be a correct answer.

This is not correct because A2 is not out of bounds for the purpose of a throw-in, so he can't carry the ball onto the court because he is not a thrower. He is OOB by virtue of having a foot being on the boundary line when he caught the ball.

This is the first violation. My rationale is found in 7-5-7a. Any player may make a direct throw-in or he/she may pass the ball to a teammate(s) outside the boundary line. Now since this is not a direct inbounds pass and the ball is already OOB it must imply that the teammate must be outside the boundary. The 7-5-7 exception would not apply because A2 is not outside the boundary. He is inbounds and is touching the boundary with one foot when the ball is caught. Therefore 9-2-3 would apply. The ball was caught while the ball was on the OOB side of the boundary.

TWEET, and the ball is put into play at the spot of the original throw-in.