What dunks?
 

Fifteen minutes prior to the game two team members of team A dunk with both the coach and official as witnesses. When coach submits his squad list, he deliberately omits the names of the violators. Official assesses a technical foul for each act of dunking as team fouls and charges the coach with two indirect technical fouls. This ruling is correct.*






*It doesn't say whether or not this happened in Kansas.:D

Smart coaching move. It seems to me that the coach is saying that those kids are not team members for this contest. There should be no technical fouls charged. The rule says that it applies to all "team members."

But, the definition of team member does not include being on the list. These same guys could sit on the bench and enter the game at some point, at the expense of a technical foul.

... it's a warning and a "T" in Kansas.:D

10-3 A Player shall not:

10-3-4 Grasp either basket during the time of the officials' jurisdiction, dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff ...

If they aren't on the official roster then they are not players in the game. If the coach decides to leave them off it is not our job to decide why they aren't on the roster.

Sounds like the coach out foxed the officials & they decided to apply their own brand of justice.

Maybe the kids are academically ineligible. Perhaps they are serving a suspension imposed by the school. There is no way to know. What we do know is that the coach is being very smart. If the coach doesn't list them on the team roster and his position is that they are not part of the team for this game, then there should not be a penalty.

1st dead ball throw in for Team B, Coach A requests to talk to an Official to inform he needs to add 2 players to the scorebook. These are the 2 kids that dunked. You add the players and 1 Administrative "T' is applied to Team A. No direct or indirect 'T' to Coach A. B was going to get the ball anyway, so team A does not loose a possession. Brilliant! Only 2 Free throws instead of 4.
:D
What do ya think?

this happened at a summer league game a few years ago. One of my players (he was only 5'7") is dunking during warmups.

The ref comes to me and says "wow, he is really getting up there". I ask the ref "could you please call the tech?" Ref replies "it's only summer league coach." I respond "if youre calling the game with regular high school rules, please call the T. I'd rather he learn to not dunk now than during the season."

Ref says "fine" and calls the technical foul. As he is administering the FTs, I start yelling at his partner asking "what the heck is that call???" etc, just carrying on. Partner comes over to the bench and tells me to calm down, and explains that according to the rules, dunking during warmups is a technical foul. I look over to my player seated on the bench and say "I told you! Now you owe your team 4 points"

Refs seemed to enjoy that. Im just glad I didnt get a T cuz then I wouldnt have been able to use my "now you owe your team __ points" line...

BTW, player never got another T while playing for me.

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

If these guys are in uniform and participating in warmups with the team, they sound like team members to me.

Jer, check the final sentence of 10-3-4: "This item applies to all team members."

Maybe they changed this one too, but in my 06/07 book 10-3-4 ends with the words "this item applies to all team members" so it is definitely not just the players (players are in the game).

When does someone become a team member? When his name is submitted to the official scorer which must happen prior to the 10 minute mark (3-2-1) but *could* happen sooner. The rule addresses lots of things that cannot be changed aftert the 10 minute mark but nothing is said about removing a name at any point.

Soooo.... I'm thinking that if a coach has a person's name on the list of players he submits to the table - or even intends to submit to the table - then that person is a team member. I do not believe it is within the spirit of the rules for a coach to avoid penalty by removing names from the roster.

So if two varsity players were doing this prior to the jv game would you consider them team members and charge Ts?

I think that I would also penalize the pregame dunks, if the names were added to the scorebook at any point in the game. I would also hit the head coach with a direct T for an unsporting act. ;)

Could you hold over the T's to the Varsity game following JV??

yep, I missed that.:D

Basedo n my previous post I would say no, unless the JV coach had their names on his roster.

Just run them off.

No just informing jer that there are no players before the game begins, so if we went by what he highlighted there would be no way to ever penalize anyone for a dunk during warmups. He is simply not correct to use the term players for this rule.

When does the jurisdiction of the officials begin for the varsity game? ;)

6:45 MST

When the players dunked at the 15 minute mark, the calling official by rule was supposed to inform the players <b>and</b> their head coach that they each just got a "T". That's when you find out whether they were actually team members or not. If the coach says they are, give 'em 'T"s, If the coach says they aren't, run 'em off the floor.

And if they aren't "team members" before the game, they sureashell aren't gonna be team members <b>during</b> the game.

Just use the rules that you already have. No need at all to get into waiting until the squad list goes to the bench.

Did they also tell you that you needed to have a seat? :D

If it walks like a duck and if it talks like a duck.....I think you know where I'm going with this.

If they are participating in pregame, dressed like the rest of the team, in my book they are "team members". 2 indirect T's! No coaches box and if the coach leaves them off the roster, fine! And remember he's got two of the three DINGS already chalked up for the night.

Well, being a trusting sort personally, I'm gonna take the head coach at his word. If he tells me that they're not on his team, far be it for me to tell him he's a lying douchebag.:D

Seriously, if the head coach does tell me that they're not part of his team, I'll go along with that. If there's any doubt at all, I'll give him the benefit of it. Suspicions do not necessarily equate to fact. I can guarantee you though that those individuals will <b>not</b> be sitting on the bench during the game, nor will they be trying to enter it either.

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...ages/agree.gif

Is there any justification for allowing him to leave them off the roster, then retroactively applying the Ts if he decided to add them later? And then tack on that unsporting T that was previously mentioned?

So....5 T's altogether, 2 direct to the coach, 2 indirect? That seems harsh. And I don't think there is a good justification for going that route. I do, however, think you could justify either retroactively applying the T's (with 2 indirects), or nailing the coach for 2 unsporting T's (both directs). Plus the team T for adding to the roster.

I'm thinking this is probably a 2-3 situation, and the R would decide which way to enforce it based on whether s/he wants to unload the coach over this.

Just my opinion.

I like informing the coach that he can add them now, but he won't be able to finish the game due to the two indirects and one direct.

What rule do we use to forbid these guys sitting on the bench?
Also, 10-1-2-b states that they can be added to the team member list, at the price of a technical foul for each.

Yep, 2-3. It is the right thing to do because the coach tried to cheat. There is no room in HS athletics for that. WHACK AWAY!

The coach gets a direct and two indirects and is gone. The two "team members" each get a player technical. The team gets a team tech for the administrative change to the scorebook. We shoot eight FTs.

1. The rule is the one that allows JR to inform the coach that if they sit on the bench for the game in uniform then they are going to be considered team members and penalized appropriately, but if they spend the game in the lockerroom or go change into street clothes and then have a seat they won't be considered team members. That's 2-3, baby.

2. The correct penalty for adding BOTH team members to the scorebook after the ten minute mark is a SINGLE team technical foul.

1)Rules 4-34-2 and 1-13-1. The coach told you that they're not team members. That also means that they're not bench personnel. The bench is for team members and coaches. That means that their butts aren't going on the bench.

2) Again, the coach has already told you that they're <b>NOT</b> team members. That's why you aren't going to let them be added to a <b>team member</b> list. Just say "no". If the coach wants to argue, just say "fine, Coach, we'll both put a report in after the game and we'll let someone up the line decide whether I'm wrong or not."

Okay, I'll accept that. But that same rule, (2-3, baby) would also give me the authority to consider them team members when they were out there in uniform warming up with the other team members and illegally dunking the ball.



You're right. My bad.

So then, what if, during the game, a guy seated on team A's bench holding a clipboard stands up and says "What a horrible call! Ref, you suck!" Official signals a technical foul on team A bench. He reports and designates the offender. Technical foul on assistant coach A, indirect on the head coach.
Head coach A speaks up quickly. "Whoa, that guy is not a coach. He is not a part of or in any way affiliated with our team.

Then what?

If I were the ref, I'd assess the coach. If I know her, and I think she's sincere, I'm having the idiot with the clipboard thrown out of the gym. Otherwise, I'm telling the coach, "You need to control your bench and that means everyone who's sitting there."

Fifteen minutes prior to the game two team members of team A dunk with both the coach and official as witnesses. When coach submits his squad list, he deliberately omits the names of the violators. Official assesses a technical foul for each act of dunking as team fouls and charges the coach with two indirect technical fouls. This ruling is correct.

I think something may have gotten lost here. I think the point of this question was not the definition of a team member, but whether the coach was allowed to escape a penalty by a technicality. Let's add some information to the original situation. Assume that everybody knows that these guys are team members. This is their second game of the day. You saw both of them play in the first game. When the dunks occur, the coach yells, "What's wrong with you two?? Get off this court and get out of my sight!" He then grabs his own scorebook and is seen using an eraser. He may even tell the official, "Those guys know better than that. Just for that, I'm leaving them off my list of players for this game."

Would this change anyone's ruling?

I'd assess the T on the coach at that point. He is responsible for who is on the bench. If they're not affiliated with the team, they shouldn't be there. But that's up to him to enforce.

Nobody has gotten lost and nothing has changed. It's the exact same scenario. If the coach says that they aren't team members, you either believe the coach or you don't believe him. And if you don't believe him, you damnwell better be able to come up with a good reason for saying he's a liar.

Never do anything that you can't justify afterwards in a game report. And you sureashell can't justify saying "Well, I <b>thought</b> the coach was lying to me." Put the onus where it belongs---> on the coach, not the official.

This actually happened to me in a aau/travel league setting a while ago.

Right off the tip guy sitting on the end of the bench was chirping. After a few minutes I had enough and T'ed him. Head coach and assistant both jump up asking who's the T on. I point to the victim, they say "he's not a coach, he's the BUS DRIVER!!"

I laugh, the bus driver laughs, the coaches scream at him to get off the bench up into the stands and keep his damn mouth shut. They finally smile and say it won't happen again. The other coach asked what happened, I told him I T'ed the bus driver by mistake. He laughed and we played on.

No biggie.

So did you shoot the 2 or just play on?:)

It's not about lying. It's about using a loophole to avoid a penalty. What if the coach asks you if it's okay? "Mr. Ref, I apologize. I warned those two knuckleheads about that. What if I leave them off the list for this game? Do we still get the T's?"

I say yes, based on the intent and purpose of the rule.

No, that's exactly the point I addressed (maybe you should take me off your ignore list, you're missing a lot of good stuff ;) ) A technicality does not change the intent. No T's from me in this case. It's clear, unless the coach is a GREAT actor and really quick on his feet that those kids didn't belong on the court to begin with. I would call this in to the assigner later just in case.

Waved off the T.

Played on.

Nothing has changed....

You ask the coach if the kids are team members of his or not.

If he says "Yes", you hand out the "T"s.

If he says "No", you put their butts in the stands and they're off the bench until the game is over.

Jmo but it's that simple.

IT'S A DUCK!!!

If they are in uniform and warming up with the team it's 2 indirects and I'll take my chances with the state association on this one...

If they are not "part of the team", ask what the heck they are doing on the floor, and have the site administrator remove them from the gym. Non-team members should not be on the floor for insurance liability reasons, and if they came to the game in their own uniforms, pretending to be on the team, ran out on the floor to participate without the approval of the coach (and of course the coach would not approve of non-team members participating as it would be a liability issue), then they should have no problem removing them from the gym. Detention might also be in order. As a coach, I would not let my players put our team in jeopardy by costing us points and possession, and I definitely would not let non-players jeopardize the financial functionality of the school district. ;) that should about cover it

Usually this situation, when it occurs, is varsity players goofing off before the JV game; sometimes even in uniform. You don't see it in your more disciplined programs, however. Those varsity boys will be wearing shirts and ties (generally) during the JV pregame.

I didn't read all the postings, but, why were these players on the court when" all team members were warming up". Why not invite all the people in the stands to join their warm up. Their has to be some infraction fo some rule. Were the players in uniform. most team will not suit up players that are suspended or ineligible.