When to stop closely guarded count?
 

I have a rookie question that when I have asked at meetings, everyone seems to not be able to give a definitive answer. You have a closely guarded situation at the top of the key. You start the 5 count with your left hand. They start their dribble and are still closely guarded for a 4 count, then make a move to the basket while still closely guarded. Do you blow the whistle at 5 while they are moving toward the basket, or do you stop the count as they are making a "move" to the basket?

Your question is very clearly answered by the new rules book.
The count is terminated if the dribbler gets his head and shoulders past the defender. (4-10)

I should add that if this doesn't happen before the five seconds are up, then a closely guarded violation has occurred.

Memories
 

From Jackson35: "Do you stop the count as they are making a "move" to the basket?"

Many, many years ago, the dribbler earned a new count when he or she made a "move" past the 28 foot hashmark, but that was when we were having several jump balls in a game, players only got two points for a half court shot, and players along the lane line rebounded when the ball hit the rim, or was it on the release? I think that we've reversed ourselves a few times on the last reference.

There is still a lot of confusion on this by veteran officials. The count continues until the dribbler gets his head and shoulders past the defender. A lot of officials still release the count if the dribbler makes a move on the basket. However, the rule is pretty clear when to end the count.

As others have said...it's head and shoulders past the D....

The rule before seemed to favor the O if all they had to do was make a move toward the basket...If the D is still on them, that count continues...

Regarding closely guarded...

the distance from the freethrow line to the top of the key is 4'9", correct?

and closely guarded count starts when the front foot of the ball handler and the front foot of the defender are within 6', correct?

I don't know about you guys, but if I see a player carrying his shampoo on the court, it's a T.

OK - I'll admit that was my lamest post in a long time. :o

A better measurement is gotten by using the center circle, which is 6' in radius. The rule says nothing about body parts, just says guarder needs to be within 6'

The radius of the circle is 6 feet. The same applies to the center circle from the center line.

Peace

c'mon, give yourself some credit - you're typically much lamer than this.

You couldve gone more lamerer by saying "a nobleman bringing his shampoo on the court should be a violation but killing him seems a little extreme"...

Thanks, I tell my guys to use the center circle measurement to guage their distance from their opponent. I was just wondering if why in my head there seemed to be a discrepancy with the freethrow circle. the freethrow line is 15', top of the key is 19' 9", are they measured from different points (baseline versus basket, or vice versa)?

Also, I remember reading in this years rules/case book something about the front foot of each player being within 6', I will try to find the reference when i get to my book when I get home tonight. If someone else can help, I would appreciate it.

Just asking, because different officials seem to have a different perception of how close a defender must be to start a count, but the floor markings should be consistant, barring an earthquake. I've had an official that does Div I NCAA games that occasionally slums it and does HS varsity games tell me that if the defenders not close enough to touch the ballhandler, its not close enough to start counting.

the rule does reference that the distance is to be measured from front foot of defender to front foot of offensive player...don't have my book with me for a reference, but that wording is in the rule...

Not from what I can find in the 2006/2007 nfhs book in both rule 4 & rule 9 and case plays.

I guess you'll post your rule later.

I believe the lane spaces are also three foot and can be used as a guide.

If someone else doesnt post the reference; I will after scrimmages tonight.

Naw, I'll post it now.NFHS rule 4-10.

Rookies.....:rolleyes:

The radius of the free throw semi-circle is 6 feet 1-6

correct per 4-10

The free throw line is measured from the plane of the face of the backboard 1-6

The three point line is measured from the center of the basket 1-4-1

The count begins when the player in control of the ball is continously guarded by a player who is within six-feet...the measurement is from front/forward foot/feet of the defender to front/forward foot/feet of the ball handler...4-10

Thanks, I knew my math was off somewhere and im sitting at work going crazy trying to figure out how I was off by 1' 3".

Either way, that distance of 6' should be close enough to start counting, regardless of "pressure applied" to the ball handler.

weeeeeellllll, if the defender is just standing there chomping gum and not actively guarding the dribbler, I dont have a count at 6-foot. Such as when the offense comes into their front court and the D is in a zone. If the D is actively engaging the dribbler I will count.

Hmmm. Is there a rule basis for this? Sounds like a Kansas thing.

so if the D is within the 6' range with the O dribbling in place, D is in a defensive stance but not swiping or mirroring the ball, just in stance within 6', do you count? How is "actively guarding the dribbler" defined?

ouch, you cut me to the bone:eek: Rules basis would be the rule regarding LGP, imo. Just because a player is on the floor, does not mean he is guarding. However, if he is in a normal guarding postion, I will count. It would not be fair to the D if I waited until the dribbler was, say three feet, to start my count. It would be too difficult for the defender to react as quickly as he could at 6 feet. I'm just saying I use some judgement as I see the play. How do you call closely guarded?

If he's within 6' and in LGP we have to start the count....

[QUOTE=. I've had an official that does Div I NCAA games that occasionally slums it and does HS varsity games ...



Excuse me, but what does that mean?:confused:

If he is in a defensive stance; yes I will count. Otherwise he feels like he has to move closer to get a closely guarded count, and that would put him at a disadvantage. He does not have to swipe to have a closely guarded call. But simply standing at the top of the key or other position in a zone does not necessarily equate to defensive stance or "actively guarding" imo. Other views??

"Actively guarding" has never been defined under the "closely guarded" rule. The only criteria ever needed was that the defender be "continuously guarding". As long as the defender stayed within 6 feet, they met the criteria needed to get a 5-second violation called, by rule.

It's taught differently, depending on local preferences. Some teach that the defender should be actively guarding if that they're at the 6 foot limit. Some go strictly by the rule; if the defender is within 6 feet, the count goes on. Some teach not to start or keep the count going until the defender closes to around 3 feet. Whatever is used in any area should be called consistently.

Jmo.

If a defender is simply standing at the top of the key and is within 6 feet of the player with the ball, he has met the criteria needed to be "closely guarding" under the rules. There is not, and never has been, any requirement for a defender to be in a guarding stance. They just have to be within 6 feet of the player with the ball.

Some areas don't follow the rule as written. They use their own philosophy of calling it. Shrug.

What about the first sentance of 4-23-1? "Guarding is the act of legal placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent." It doesn't say anything about "defensive stance", "actively guarding", or any other such term. In Art. 2, it states to obtain an initial legal guarding position, both feet must be on the playing court, and the front of the torso must be facing the opponent. Standing there chomping on gum (as long as they are facing the opponent) counts as "guarding", according to the rules.

Most of the time it is not the unit but just some their officials. And most of the time they are the first ones to condem another who disregards a rule or mistakenly applies it. Then the rule is the gospel, never to be overlooked or misapplied. Go figure!:eek:

Hold on.

4-10 says nothing about either player's feet, neither does 9-10 and neither do any case plays.

So this is *incorrect* per 4-10.

I'm still waiting for someone to post something relating to how to measure the 6 feet other than the 2 players need to be 'within' 6 feet.

Maybe it is a Texas thing, but the interpretation we use is that the defender has to be doing more than standing there, even within 6 feet.

I'm thinking the logic is: If the defender is attempting to play defense (and we can get into what "continuously guarded" means until we are all sick) and is within 6 feet, start the count.

On the other hand, the mere presence of an offensive player within the defender's 6 foot "halo" does not mean we reward the defender if he/she is making no attempt to defend, since they are not "continuously guarding."

It sounds like Texas follows the rule as written.

Yes it does - in the 2007-08 Rules.

You're right, it doesn't say that in the 2006-07 book.

2007-2008 rules page 30 Rule 4-10....blah, blah, blah "The distance shall be measured from the forward foot/feet of the defender to the forward foot/feet of the ball handler." more blah, blah, blah

Interesting. As I said I'm looking in the 2006/2007 book, which does not have those words.

Thanks.

I must be using the California book...:rolleyes:

[QUOTE=FrankHtown][QUOTE=. I've had an official that does Div I NCAA games that occasionally slums it and does HS varsity games ...



Excuse me, but what does that mean?:confused:[/QUOTE]

It means this guy does a great job on the NCAA level, but always seem very indignant while doing HS games and speaks to everyone in a very condescending manner while doing these HS games. For example, 17 year old girl accidentally resets shot clock on a jump ball in the 2nd quarter, he comes to the table to figure out what the clock should be set at and mutters "I never have to deal with this sh!t at a _____ (college conference) game". Or telling a defensive player "if you can't touch him, I ain't counting, you'll never go D1 playing defense like that" when the defensive player asks why he's not counting during a dead ball.

Yes I agree that is what is stated. Is that what is intended? that the offense can walk into a closely guarded state without the defense having to move a muscle? hum... interesting.. Lets assume that 4 of the D is setup on the 3 point arc, spread equally apart around it and the 5th is in the paint. the dribbler comes into his FC and within 6' of the D at the top of the key and maintains this 6' distance but moves around the arc. The defense never moves. By rule the closely guarded count would continue as the dribbler goes by each defensive player. and the defense can be picking their nose. Is that really what we are trying to Ref here? That seems to run in conjunction with the 3-second violation.

I think we need to take a poll.

...more likely you're not looking at last year's book.

Your point being?

It's an unannounced addition to 4-10 in the 2007-08 rule book. The FED added the sentence "The distance shall be measured from the forward foot/feet of the defender to the forward foot/feet of the ball handler." There was no mention of the addition in the front of the book or under "new rules changes" at the back. Iow, they just snuck the l'il mother in.

Can I say "mother"? Or should I say "father"?

What does your inner female say?

(Actually, isn't it spelled, "mutha"?)

Agreed.

Also note that on a standard HS court, it's *about* 12' from the edge of the center circle to the top of the key. So, if the defender is at the top of the key, the offensive player must be 1/2 way between to start a count.

What it really means is that this guy has no business working a HS game. He should quit HS and let someone who cares and is excited to be there get the contest. :(

Nope, you're following a Texas interpretation. They're definitely not following the rule as written. There is nothing listed anywhere in the rules that states that a defender doesn't have to be doing anything but be within the 6 foot space.

If you still have the 2004-05 rule book, they had a POE on "closely guarded" that laid out the criteria used. Here's the relevant stuff:

<b>1. Closely Guarded.</b>
<b>A: When To Start:</b> A closely guarded situation occurs when a player in control of the ball in his or her team's front court, is guarded by an opponent who is within six feet of that player who is holding or dribbling the ball. It must also be emphasized that the defensive player must obtain a legal guarding position.
<b>When To Stop:</b> A closely-guarded count ends when no defensive player is within six feet.

That's it! They mention the different counts, beating a defender by head and shoulders, multiple defenders, etc.There's no mention anywhere that says that a defender has to be "actively" guarding and there never has been at any time that I know of.

So this is a pretty big change, or at least clarification, don't you think?

Well, personally I was never that precise about the 6-foot closely guarded thingy that I ever really worried about front feet, back feet, or any other feet. I just wasn't ever <b>that</b> good. If I thought the defender earned a count, I gave him one.

You know what I'm talking about. Nothing's changed.

btw, this is a very informative discussion. thanks.

i wonder how Old School would call closely guarded...

Yep (I'm at least not as good as you) but from a strict reading of the rules I would say it gives the player with the ball about another foot or 2 before he's closely guarded if the defender is in good defensive position.

In real life who's gonna be looking at the feet in these situations to determine "closely guarded". If I'm looking at anybody's feet it's to catch travelling or OOB. If I'm in a closely guarded sitch I'm looking at bodies, arms and hands.

Amen.<i></i>

So, Jurassic, not being a smart aleck here, and not necessarily disagreeing. Just wanting some clarification. I know this sounds like nit-picking words, but I think that it's important to get to the point of what the words mean. What's the difference between "actively guarding", which you say they don't require, and just plain ol' guarding, which I assume you'd agree is required?

Kinda like the difference between coaching and "actively coaching."

"Guarding" and "closely guarding" are both defined in the rule book. I don't have a clue what "actively guarding" means, so I can't possibly answer your question. That's what I've been saying. There is <b>NO</b> definition for "actively guarding" under the rules, and there <b>never</b> has been a definition for "actively guarding" under the rules that I've ever heard of. If somebody, like Texas, is using a concept called "actively guarding", then they're making up their own local criteria, not anything that the FED has ever issued.

Note that I'm also not saying that I disagree with the way that I <b>think</b> the Texas people are calling the play.

Coaching is a warning and a "T" in Kansas. Actively coaching isn't.

Correct?

Yup, assuming both are being done from a vertical position.

I'm still working out "dunking" as opposed to "actively dunking," though. I don't think even rainman is that smart.

Speaking of such........

No response yet to that e-mail I sent to the head poobah in Kansas. I can't really say that I blame her.

We certainly live in an enlightened world when a mere woman can climb to the position of poobah.

Not on any court where I've ever reffed!

Remember - the FT line is measured from the backboard while the 3-pt line is measured from the center of the basket.

Soooooo...B1 obtains LGP on A1 and is withinn the 6 foot distance. You start the 5 second count, and on 2, B1 turns around and now has his back to A1 while yelling at the post player to play better defense. You keeping that count going? He had LGP and is still within 6 feet, so it fits the rules. Not sure I would keep a count going on that one though. What'cha think boss?

I definitely continue to count.
4-23-3b "The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent."

Edited to correct the article number of rule citation.

yeahbut the guard IS facing the opponent.

It's the opponent facing the other way.

What about 4-23-3(b) - After the initial guarding position is obtained, the guard is not required to continue facing the opponent?

Before you answer about turning away from immenent contact, that's also mentioned in a separate line, 4-23-3(e).

So it looks like that's the intent. Is it called in practice? Hmm...

(Btw, I'm not your boss, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.)

You know, I went to the KS website to try to see how long the season is, and found out that this illustrious woman is listed as an administrator. Now, I do not want to disparage what those administrator types do, because I know they get deluged with all sorts of tasks. However, I'd hardly refer someone to our basketball administrator if they had a question about how Colorado was interpreting the coaching box, pregame dunks, or any other rule.

So, this tells me one of three things.

1. She's not really the poobah, and our KS friend really doesn't know what he's talking about.

2. She's not the poobah, but is still the go-to person for rules interps in Kansas.

3. She is the poobah, and Kansas is so backwards that when they do promote a woman to poobah, they have to give her a more docile-sounding title like "administrator."

From Dictionary com:

<b>Poo bah:</b> -<i>A person who holds several positions, especially one that gives him <font color = red>or her</font> bureaucratic importance.</i>

Far be it from me to ever engage in any form of levity that might possibly be construed as being misogynistic.

Got that, prick?

Balls to that, I say!

Is there a place even below hell?

My impression from what I read on that web site is that it's door #4.

4. She's the poobah and is also the go-to person for rules interpretations in Kansas.

Of course, I sureashell could be wrong. It is Kansas, Toto.

Springfield MA

Boston

Okay scrimmages are done.... what were we talking about?? For the record JR, you have spoken very eloquently on this subject. I appreciate your comments.

New Jersey?

I don't get it.

I don't know the exact name of the place when it's translated into English, but I do know that at least one of the neighborhoods is in NY about an hour's drive from NYC.

More lamerer????? :confused:

You must have gone to public school. :rolleyes:

We were talking about your stated refusal to adhere to this NFHS case book play:

9.10.1 SITUATION C: Team A has the ball in its own frontcourt. B1 stands within 6 feet and facing A1 while A1 is holding the ball near the division line. RULING: In five seconds this would be a violation. In the situation outlined, as soon as B1 has assumed a guarding position, both feet on the court, facing the opponent, no other specific requirement is in effect. The amount of movement or the actual body position of the player is irrelevant.


:D

Ah, the days when the front court had a mid-court area and a fore-court area. Oh how I miss the good old days.

MTD, Sr.