Different Rules

[Snap]

Why has USA and Europe(FIBA) different rules?
It is the same game but why?

Originally Posted by Snap

Why has USA and Europe(FIBA) different rules?
It is the same game but why?

Why the difference between the NFHS and NCAA??

[Nevadaref]

Why doesn't Padgett like the French?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Why doesn't Padgett like the French?

You ask that as if he's alone.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by PYRef

Why the difference between the NFHS and NCAA??

It's really very simple. They are simply different organizations that run each. In reality, there's many more than just the three sets of rules in the US (NFHS, NCAA, and NBA). Most states deviate ever so slightly from the NFHS rules, even if they use the fed rules as the baseline and keep 99.9% of the rules the same. Shot clocks, coaching boxes, mercy rules; those are just the main ones.

Iowa even has different rules for boys and girls, based solely on the fact that high school sports in Iowa are run by two different organizations. Now, the differences are minor and most fans aren't even aware of them.

In order to decide on one set of rules, everyone would have to reach a consensus on which rule set to use and who had to give up what parts of their rule books. Giving up authority isn't something we're good at in the US, for good and bad.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by PYRef

Why the difference between the NFHS and NCAA??

Each organization represents a different level of player. I do not expect HS kids to be as knowledgeable or competent as a player at the NCAA level. Nor would I expect the officials and coaches to have the same level of competence at the HS level that they do at the college level. It would be a disaster to have all rules and all philosophies applied to both HS and college games. There is even a reason NCAA Men’s and NCAA Women’s basketball rules are different. You cannot make one size fit all and make that work.

Peace

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Each organization represents a different level of player. I do not expect HS kids to be as knowledgeable or competent as a player at the NCAA level. Nor would I expect the officials and coaches to have the same level of competence at the HS level that they do at the college level. It would be a disaster to have all rules and all philosophies applied to both HS and college games. There is even a reason NCAA Men’s and NCAA Women’s basketball rules are different. You cannot make one size fit all and make that work.

This position is very reasonable: basketball isn't the same for 8-11 year old players, 12-15, 16-19 and so on. Yes, it's basically the same game: throw the ball into the basket and defend in order your opponents don't do it. But the skills of the players are different.

FIBA wants that all basketball games played under their authority share the same rules, whether they are pro games in Italy, Croatia, Russia and so on or middle school games in Norway, Burkina Faso and China.

This way of thinking is wrong, IMO (which has nothing to do with different grades of "civilization", of course): simply, middle schoolers don't need some rules that are made for pro games (24 seconds, for example) or they need modified versions of those rules. When they grow up, they'll be able to play faster and better, with greater competence both about play and rules.

That's why coaches at a lower level are allowed to call time-outs (I believe this happens in FED, doesn't it?) while at higher levels they can't. In FIBA players are not allowed to call time-outs, for example, only coaches.

Moreover, having a monolithical rule set forces local organizations to set their own variations to the rules: this happens all the time in Italy, where it is not required to have a shot clock for most middle and high school level games, with the effect that the shot clock rule is different than the one in the book. Why FIBA has had a stupid shot clock rule for many years? (The shot clock was reset at the release of the try.) Just because they felt difficult to have a "more-difficult-to-implement" rule in all their world.

At the same time I think that having scores of different rule sets is not a good service to our game, nor having different signals for the same violation or foul (like for NCAA men and women): is Nevada high school basketball so different from Iowa's to justify different rule sets?

Ciao

[Jurassic Referee]

Back in the mid-60's, several of us fooled around with FIBA rules. We actually joined FIBA for a while, but gave it up as not being worth the money. At that time, anybody could join but you still had to be certified before you supposedly were able to do international games. FIBA at that time was basically a one-man show. A guy named Williams Jones basically ran everything, and did so from the late 40's for over 40 years before he finally retired(or died) iirc. He was based in Berlin and everything flowed from there. The story going around back then was that Jones absolutely hated the USA for some reason. He supposedly had told different people that FIBA would never go to any version of US rules while he was involved with FIBA.

True or not, I've heard almost the same version over the years from different sources. What is true is that FIBA is still very political in it's thinking.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Back in the mid-60's, several of us fooled around with FIBA rules. We actually joined FIBA for a while, but gave it up as not being worth the money. At that time, anybody could join but you still had to be certified before you supposedly were able to do international games. FIBA at that time was basically a one-man show. A guy named Williams Jones basically ran everything, and did so from the late 40's for over 40 years before he finally retired(or died) iirc. He was based in Berlin and everything flowed from there. The story going around back then was that Jones absolutely hated the USA for some reason. He supposedly had told different people that FIBA would never go to any version of US rules while he was involved with FIBA.

True or not, I've heard almost the same version over the years from different sources. What is true is that FIBA is still very political in it's thinking.

I wasn't an official in the mid 60's (still too young ), but I remember Mr. Jones; and the USA national team at the '72 Olympic Games remembers him very well . I don't know whether he hated the USA or not, but surely he was as you described him. Now the situation has changed and many rule changes reflect this (shot clock as in the USA, AP, substitutions and so on); however politics is still an important issue in FIBA.

Do you know that until a few years ago a team could not substitute after committing a violation? The rationale for this was: they could throw the ball OOB just to obtain a substitution. Go figure.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by eg-italy

At the same time I think that having scores of different rule sets is not a good service to our game, nor having different signals for the same violation or foul (like for NCAA men and women): is Nevada high school basketball so different from Iowa's to justify different rule sets?

Ciao

Most of the US goes under NF rules for basketball at the HS level. Officials at the NF level are likely working both boy's and girl's basketball on some level. At the NCAA level, you work one or the other. You do not work both and each committee has their own ideas over what should be used.

Really I do not see the big deal. Every organization should have the right to develop a rules set for their level. Even when you work JH or youth leagues there are rules they make to accommodate the lack of ability for their players and coaches. I work football and there are many rules at the youth level that simply protects the kids from a safety standpoint. Basketball does not always have those same ways of thinking, but there is something very different about working a JH game and a HS varsity game. The player’s level of understanding is so different.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by eg-italy

is Nevada high school basketball so different from Iowa's to justify different rule sets?

This is where it comes down to authority.

High schools in the US are controlled by the individual states, not the federal government. All of their sports are also controlled at the state level. In order to completely mesh, the two states would have to get together and decide which rules to change so they both match perfectly. The problem is, those in each state have set their rules according to their own personal philosophies, institutional goals, and desires of the coaches, athletic directors, administrators, politicians (to a certain extent), etc.
Then, multiply this difficulty by 50 to cover all the states.

I don’t think it's really a problem, though, as the rule variations are subtle and minor. The average fan wouldn't notice them. Things like leaving the bottom space open on free throws verses leaving the top space open. Also, they allow one state to "experiment" with a change. If it's successful, then other states can copy it.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Each organization represents a different level of player.
...
There is even a reason NCAA Men’s and NCAA Women’s basketball rules are different. You cannot make one size fit all and make that work.

Peace

It's more about autonomy than the need for a seperate set of rules. Except for the shot clock, every level could use the same set of rules and it would work just fine. The rules differences are generally subtle. There is no good reason that the women can't have a 10 second backcourt count, or why the airborne shooter rule can't be the same between NFHS and NCAA.

FIBA, NCAA, NFHS, (and possibly the NBA) could unify their rules quite easily if the wanted to but to do so would make the people involved in most of them redundant and no longer needed. The egos of those in each of those groups are too large for them to go down a path that eliminates thier uniqueness.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It's more about autonomy than the need for a seperate set of rules. Except for the shot clock, every level could use the same set of rules and it would work just fine. The rules differences are generally subtle. There is no good reason that the women can't have a 10 second backcourt count, or why the airborne shooter rule can't be the same between NFHS and NCAA.

You just answered your own question. Why should the shot clock make a difference? NCAA Men's is changing the 3 point line by next year. If those two rules were changed for HS it would greatly affect the game at the HS level more than it would for the college ranks. They need to stay different to help address issues that only apply to those levels or leagues.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

FIBA, NCAA, NFHS, (and possibly the NBA) could unify their rules quite easily if the wanted to but to do so would make the people involved in most of them redundant and no longer needed. The egos of those in each of those groups are too large for them to go down a path that eliminates thier uniqueness.

Ego has little or nothing to do with it. The NCAA is a group of colleges that have membership with other colleges across the country. I do not see why they would want to use rules that apply to high schools. You do not see College Professors with the same requirement as an elementary education teacher to gets for tenure.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You just answered your own question. Why should the shot clock make a difference? NCAA Men's is changing the 3 point line by next year. If those two rules were changed for HS it would greatly affect the game at the HS level more than it would for the college ranks. They need to stay different to help address issues that only apply to those levels or leagues.

Ego has little or nothing to do with it. The NCAA is a group of colleges that have membership with other colleges across the country. I do not see why they would want to use rules that apply to high schools. You do not see College Professors with the same requirement as an elementary education teacher to gets for tenure.

And one illustrative difference would be their different takes on bench decorum. The NFHS has specifically stated that it didn't want to hear profanity coming from their coaches, even if it was directed at their own players. That's supposed to be a "T". Meanwhile, the NCAA has also specifically stated this year that the tightening of bench decorum directed towards coaches does not include foul language aimed at their own players.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You just answered your own question. Why should the shot clock make a difference? NCAA Men's is changing the 3 point line by next year. If those two rules were changed for HS it would greatly affect the game at the HS level more than it would for the college ranks. They need to stay different to help address issues that only apply to those levels or leagues.

Not really. You could easily have one set of rules with a few parameters to be applied at different levels....different lengths of time for quarters/halves and the shot clock, different court dimensions, etc.

There is no good reason for the definitions to be different, the penalties for infractions to be different, or the protocols to be different. Of course you can dispense with elements of the protocols as the level dictates (we already do that with NFHS rules for some types of games anyway).

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Ego has little or nothing to do with it. The NCAA is a group of colleges that have membership with other colleges across the country. I do not see why they would want to use rules that apply to high schools. You do not see College Professors with the same requirement as an elementary education teacher to gets for tenure.

Peace

More like the Men vs. Women in the NCAA....neither one is going to want to cede any amount of control to the other. Likewise for HS using NCAA rules.

Again, it wouldn't be hard to have one set of rules for game play and an appendix to cover the very few things that need to be different (diminsions, timing, POE).