Egregious mis-application of a rule
 

Here's the sitch...

HS Varsity game. Fed rules in effect.

OOB throw-in at division line. Thrower retreats straight backwards into open floor space to gain passing angle and avoid defensive pressure. Administering official hits whistle and signals with Travel mechanic.

What recourse does the head coach have to avoid an unwarranted loss of possession?

My first inclination is to request a time out and ask to confer with the officiating team.

What would you folks suggest as the proper protocol to follow?

What are the chances of getting a rectification?

TIA for all relevant replies, rules citations not needed, just looking for advice as to if or how to proceed.

You would have to politely ask the official if he is sure that is the right call. You may even be able to ask if he would consider checking with his partner for some help. This is not a correctable error. This is simply a misapplication of the rules. If you lose out on a possession over this, it isn't the end of the world, but it isn't good either.
You should make sure not to take a technical foul over this. That would only hurt your team more.

I would contact whoever is in charge of your area officials and make my comments. If the official doesn't understand this fundamental, there are probably many other things that also need work.

What Nevada said.

It's probably not worth wasting a TO either, unless you have one that you don't really need. Ask him sometime though if you get a chance. In cases like these, coaches can help us too. Maybe he might think about it and look it up after the game.

"I'm sorry, ref, but it was my understanding that dribbling and traveling rules aren't in effect during a throw-in. What's the rule on that?"

Isn't the space for throw in allotted a 3' wide (as long as keeping one foot in the 3' wide area) and as deep as one would like....They don't have to be right up on the side or end line on spot throw in. I'm probably not gonna alllow them to go up in the stands obviously...but if it's an area that has 8' behind it, can't they back up....

i usually remind them that they can go back as far as they want if they have pressure (especially at the lower levels)...a lot of times you get a look like they have no idea what you are talking about and end up standing belly to belly with the defender anyway...i wish more coaches would teach this, glad to see that some are....doesn't really help if the officials screw it up i guess!;)

I can certainly understand your frustration with this, but I have to agree that you might not want to waste a time out on this play. You may convince the official that they ruled incorrectly, but they cannot go back and change their call. A great way to handle it might be to contact the assignor with your concern so they can teach the official the correct ruling.

Bottom line is you are stuck with your refs until the end of the game (and whatever rules knowledge they have). Trying to have a corrective rules discussion by a coach with a ref during game time is like trying to put lipstick on a chicken ... if you succeed, you've drawn a very fine line.

While a game in progress is not the time to argue rule application, you could ask politely to discuss that particular application of the rule with the ref after the game. However, it is my feeling many refs will decline the invitation. If they do accept, let them know what you think the rule is and invite them to double check.

Sounds like you're pretty much stuck here. Not only did the official call a violation where there wasn't one, he called the wrong violation. You cannot have a traveling call on an inbound play. What you can have is an inbound violation. However, as stated, there wasn't one of those either on this play.

Hey - stuff happens.

http://theheretik.us/wp-content/uplo...d%20092906.jpg

I find it amazing a varsity level official did this. At the first timeout I would politely ask all three of them to come over and ASK them why it was called. Don't TELL them they were wrong. If he says, "He stepped outside the 3-foot area with both feet" then you have no issue, but you might want to remind them there is no traveling on an inbounds. If he says he moved backwards, then ask his partners if they agree. In the unlikely event they ALL think it's a violation, I would explain that it's not. Then thank them.

If they said he moved backwards, this would still not be a violation as there's no depth limitation (4-42-6).

Not sure if that's what you're saying...

go bobby knight on them....

LOL JK

I would suggest as others to politly say your peice and leave it at that.

I agree, it's not a violation. My point was that if the calling official says the player moved backwards and that is why he called the violation, I would let his partners correct him right there by asking them if they agree that is NOT a violation. Don't TELL the official he was wrong, just let him step in it himself.

Got ya.. just making sure.

This is something I would take up with the assignor after the game.

One of the problems here is that, once again, most coaches don't know the rules either so there is usually no challenge. Maybe his partners brought it up in their post game. Unless the game is on the line, most officials are not going to throw their partner under the bus during a game & some not even then.

I'm curious about the coach's response in your situation.

A few years ago, I had a coach ask me how far back the opposing player could be on an inbound play. I replied, "Until he falls off the edge of the earth, or until he reaches the bleachers - whichever comes first."

I don't think he got it. :o

There are simply a lot of officials (at all levels) that get this wrong. I see it every year...in HS games and even NCAA D1 games. More often than not (at the HS level), it is by officials that think they're hot stuff (and they actually are pretty good officials)...but think they're a little too hot and don't spend much time in the rule book. They've usually got a few of the mis-understood rules in thier head and they'll keep calling it. They're not going to listen to a coach and will likely not even listen to their peers. They won't open the rule book to check it out (cause they already know they're right. ;) ). Only a conference call from James Naismith, Hank Nichols, and at least 10 other authorities would make them consider they might be wrong (and only maybe).

Here's Dr. Naismith about to make the game's first dunk. Man - he's tall!

http://www.authenticbasketball.com/i...s_naismith.jpg

From the coaching standpoint, you can ask questions - but I don't think it will do you much good. If the official doesn't know the rule, you aren't going to change his/her mind by arguing...

Looking at it from a little different perspective, I find it hard to classify this mistake or mis-application as "egregious"...just doesn't seem like it's all that earth-shattering to be labeled that way...

Well...if the fans yelled at him, then you know it was a egregrious mis-application!:D

Any coach that can use the word "egregious" in a sentence...I'll listen to them

I don’t know. Chances are one of the students in his gym class gave him a word-of-the-day calendar.

Next game, he'll try to use "defenestration."

Oh, oh, I know this one...that's what the ball-handler does when he drives past all the defenders.

I always thought that this was from the German because Fenster is the word for window. I recently learned that it actually comes from the Latin fenestra.

I've recently been told by a German friend that the German language is a derivative of Latin. Must be the black-sheep of the Latin family.

According to the scholars German is not a Romance language -- meaning derived from Latin, such as Italian and Spanish. Germanic is its own branch, and English is said to come from that.

Quare si mihi cura est.

Agreed.

Fenster and fenestra just happen to be similar.

Can you say Gaul???

Try yelling, "What kinda egregious crap is this?"

Certainly got my attention.

I agree with you. But, I'm not going to argue that with a Gothic German Redneck Army chick.

This might not be a varsity official. Since the OP is located in northern VA, this game would have to be either a rec league or possibly a scrimmage of some type, and the official(s) might be sub-varsity. Happens all the time during scrimmages. The scholastic season doesn't start here until late Nov (don't know the exact date).

If I'm the coach, and it's a critical point in the game, I call timeout and ask the calling official what he called. Most likely, the calling official will quote the proper rule and the infraction simply wasn't seen by the coach. If the official doesn't know the rule, ask for a conference with his partner(s). If they determine that an error had been made, they MIGHT give you the ball back and if you're really lucky, they might not charge the timeout.

If this situation happened in my game, I would use my elastic power to overturn the call and give the team the ball back, and I would most likely ask the coach if he still wanted the TO. I would then bring the coaches together, explain the situation and resume play. In my opinion, we have an obligation to get plays right and be fair, it is a cop out when a situation is fixable to say, "Sorry coach, we screwed up, but we're going with it anyhow." Common sense is key here.

What elastic power?:confused:

Have you got a rules citation that overrules the language of rule 2-6?

You can tell the calling official that he screwed up. You can ask him to change his call. If he doesn't want to change it though, no one has any elastic powers to make him do so, including the R.

I agree that you should try your best (away from everybody but the officials) to get your partner to change his (wrong) call, but if he doesn't want to, then we just suffer.

Agreed, only if it occurs during a critical part of the game

Thx

Nowadays I just masquerade as a coach. I left the ranks of AAU coaching several years back and took a pay cut to start a career in officiating. It is only since that time that I have been blessed with a vocabulary that includes egregious as well as other such elusive terms as 'displacement', 'continuous motion', 'interrupted dribble', 'fumble', 'intentional foul', 'advantage/disadvantage' and other vernacular that oftentimes still seem foreign to my calling partners.

Still working to fully assimilate 'over-the-back', 'reaching in' and the infamous :confused:'ON THE FLOOR' !!!!:confused:

Dblref:

Not trying to impugn any CBOA members, this is just a hypothetical to engender discussion.

Thx

LOL! This is my nomination for "post of the week"!!:p

I second the nomination!!:p :p

I think you are over-reacting if you label this call egregious.
 

My God--is this the way you react to every call you disagree with? If it was a mistake on the official's part, I would not get worked up over it unless it cost you the chance to win the game.

QED

What made you think anyone got worked up?

It was indeed egregious on several levels;i.e;, the point in the game and that a V level official could bugger the puppy on such a basic call and use an improper mechanic on a bogus call

What about "and-1"? :cool:

nomination
 

I respectfully decline. OS may chime in with a more deserving post at any minute. Do you really think he can resist the temptation to inject his unique orthography to 'egregious'? I am sure he can also guide us on the proper mechanic for 'over-the-back' and the circumstances that lead to 'On the floor'
Nah, I must really defer on this honor in the absence of the man who literally oozes with more deserving material.

BTW, what happened to the esteemed Old Skool??

Wonderful shoes...

sssshhhhhhh..... he is in timeout. Dont wake him up:eek:

An official making such a poor call that clearly demonstrates lack of basic rules knowledge is definitely something to which a coach has every right to react. If you don't believe that, then you are not putting the proper amount of care into being an official.

This call is definitely egregious for a number of reasons; may as well grant free throws on a PC foul.

Hey, you can't decline a nomination. You have to wait for the actual award and then say something like "Just being nominated was all the award I need.":D

He was taking up too much of my time, so he is on a leave of absence :)

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by justacoach
BTW, what happened to the esteemed Old Skool??

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

So you gave him the
<TABLE cellSpacing=6 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD noWrap>
Brad http://forum.officiating.com/images/...ser_online.gif<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_450627", true); </SCRIPT>
Whack! Get Out!!!
</TD><TD width="100%"> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

SWEET! :D

No problem, I didn't take it that way. I only wanted to point out to KSRef that it might be a sub-varsity (gotta love that term) rather than a varsity official. I joined CBOA in 1994 (came over from Bull Run Officials Assn.) and I worked a few "varsity" level games before being selected for the varsity level.

Hey Dblref:

Can you PM me with contact phone for G. Chicko. Have a few ??s for him


Thanks

The smarter coaches know <b>how</b> to react.

Great point, JR, That is exactly why I brought up the idea here.

Thanks to all who contributed to this discussion.