Friday night.

[devdog69]

Might end up being a long story, but there are a couple of different stories to tell.

Varsity girls and boys games, homecoming, very large crowd, working a two-man crew. I had worked JV Tuesday night and had the visitors then also, so, I was expecting some grief about that from them. I had nearly T-d the varsity girls coach on Tuesday night during the JV girls game, and probably would have if not for knowing that I had them in a Varsity game on Friday. Girls game really went pretty well, it was a 20-point margin in the end with the visitors winning. Had one crash in the first few minutes that I no-called and probably should have got a charge, my partner the R, had pre-gamed that he wanted a call if we had a crash, and I went right out and no-called one. Girl had great defensive position, dribbler comes in makes slight contact, tries to stop, passes the ball off, maybe extended her forearm slightly and they both fell the floor.

After a 45-minute break in between games where they introduced every homecoming queen since 1978 (seriously), my partner and I head out at about the 15-minute mark. My partner is a good official and I know him from our football crew last year. He worked two rounds of sub-state basketball playoffs last year so he is a qualified official, however, he needs to hang out here more often to learn the finer points of the rules. We are walking around the court, when he grabs me by the arm and looks up. I turn to see two of the home team boys jump up, grab the rim, and pull it down about three-four inches. We quickly look at each other and say "oh sh*!t". He takes off towards the table and I track down the two kids that I saw doing it and get their numbers (not as easy as it sounds, they had warmups on and were a little reluctant). As I join in his conversation with the home boys head coach (also the AD), he is telling him that we are going to start the game with 6 free throws and the ball out of bounds. I pull him off to the side and explain to him that three technicals are indirectly charged to the head coach and he will be ejected, tell him that I have two numbers of the guilty parties and try to persuade him to only assess two technicals because I didn't see the other one and we don't have a number. He doesn't think that three indirect's would be assessed, says it's only one to the head coach, and is adamant (sp) that he saw three. At this time, visiting coach is chanting "i've got three", and home coach is questioning whether grasping is illegal or if it's only dunking and asks us to look it up to make sure. I volunteer to do so and quickly come back and show it to him. While I'm gone, partner tells v-coach, h-coach, both administrators, and the table personnel that we will start with 3 techs, and 3 team fouls (I added that 11, & 13 will start with one personal) and instructed the table to announce it before the game. We went in the locker room at about 4 minutes as both teams left the floor. Once behind closed doors, I let him have it, "We have got this really screwed up now" I say and show him the penalty for grasping the ring which is, of course, and indirect on the coach for each one. Tell him "if you would have slowed down, took your time and listened to what I was trying to explain to you, we could have avoided some of this mess". He agrees and is beginning to panic, I tell him what's done is done, let's go from here. I do understand it wasn't all his fault, mind you, I should have been more forceful and took charge more, but, that's not easy to do with a more experienced partner. He decides to stick with what he told everybody, three T's, but no coach ejection. We went back out, told both coaches what we should have done, that we had made a mistake and were going with our original ruling, which was fine with the visiting coach. He said "I don't want him dumped, either." We removed a high school age fan during the announcement of the penalty, but, for the most part, the rest of the game went fairly well. I felt like my partner was giving the home team an unfair advantage at times on his calls, probably subconscious if at all. That could have also been because they were getting shellacked by 20 points. I just tried to call my game and forget about the pre-game events.

[BktBallRef]

So, if he had 3 T's, who did you call the third T on such you only had 2 numbers?

[moose69]

This could have been avoided by turning a blind eye to atleast one of those dunks. Our provincial supervisor has told us to do just that to avoid having to toss the coach before the game starts. When you let the first guy know he's been T'd, i've found most other players got the message really quickly.

Tyler

[devdog69]

We just called the third T, a team technical and didn't assess it to anybody. I agree with you moose that we should have turned a blind eye to at least one of the three. I tried to convey this to my partner when I pulled him aside, but he was adamant that he had three, even though he didn't bother to worry about getting their numbers. I knew which kid was the third one because they were all right in a row, and I could have gotten the third number. However, I didn't see the first one, nor did I want to have three, but my partner didn't see it that way. I don't think the visiting coach would have been upset at all if we would have told him we only saw two for sure and had their numbers.

[Kelvin green]

I know in a lot of games here we tell them as soon as we step on the floor to stay off the rim... Sometimes kids arent that smart but preventive officiating starts with the moment you step on the floor.

The problem with not enforcing the ejection... I wonder if your state has a rule of a one game suspension for ejection. The way this was done he should have sat out the game and may have a suspension (unless waived by your state association). I would not be the one to try and explain how we messed up a the rules that bad....

[devdog69]

Luckily, Kelvin, our state has no such provision on ejections. We must make a report and send it in. I left it up to my partner on doing that. It was one of those deals where one of us is Referee for one game then we switch. It was actually my game to be the R, but as soon as he started saying "we're going to do this, this, and this to the coach's, I pretty much backed off and made him take the responsibility. I opted to do this because he has several more year's experience than I. We literally didn't have time to tell them to stay off the rim as it happened as we were walking on to the floor. Although, I haven't been doing this and haven't seen it done in my area by other's, but I definitely will make it a point from now on, thanks.

[Slider]

How 'bout first coming on the court as "just a guy"; telling them to cut it out, because in a minute I miraculously turn into an official.

[mick]

Originally posted by devdog69

...were going with our original ruling, which was fine with the visiting coach. He said "I don't want him dumped, either."

devdog69,
Very good post!

Possibly, the advantage you gave to Home Team was offset by the fact you left the Home Team coach on the bench.
Visiting Coach may have felt he had a better chance with the other Coach coaching.

mick

[devdog69]

Originally posted by Slider
How 'bout first coming on the court as "just a guy"; telling them to cut it out, because in a minute I miraculously turn into an official.

Can't buy into that one Slider. These kids probably knew that they were not supposed to do that, their coach knew, but maybe they had been getting away with it before so they kept doing it. We never hesitated towards not penalizing them, the only question was how and how many. Unfortunately, between me not being more forceful and my partner not trusting my rules knowledge and/or not knowing the ramifications of his rulings we botched it up. Am I mad at him any more than at myself, no. He and I both gained respect for each other, and we both think we gained respect from both coaches. We had the "intestinal fortitude" (insert male anatomy here) to step up and do what we had to do in a tough situation, admit that we made mistakes, and we are now trying very hard to see that it doesn't happen again. Thanks for all the comments, sorry I don't have a traveling question that you can jump all over, . My questions have delved into that gray area of philosophy and interpretation, the twilight zone.

[devdog69]

Originally posted by mick

devdog69,
Very good post!

Possibly, the advantage you gave to Home Team was offset by the fact you left the Home Team coach on the bench.
Visiting Coach may have felt he had a better chance with the other Coach coaching.

mick

Mick,
Thanks. I didn't know at the time, but now I think the visiting coach (who I have again on Tuesday, but back in my JV pants) knew he was going to thump them and didn't want them to have any excuses, though he wasn't upset by a little 'ol five point (5/6 free throws) spot.

[RecRef]

Originally posted by devdog69
We just called the third T, a team technical and didn't assess it to anybody. I agree with you moose that we should have turned a blind eye to at least one of the three.

What was the reason for the team technical? Am I missing something here?

[bigwhistle]

Did you try any preventative officiating before taking the floor? A couple of sharp tweets of the whistle before you take the floor to assume your duties will let the kids konw that showboat time is over and that they have to stay off of the rim.

I try to avoid looking at the players shooting their layup drills until I have arrived at my position on the floor. If I know that something "may" have happened as i was entering, I will grab a player on that team and tell him to get control over the idiots that are about to get in trouble. It is amazing how quickly they will discipline themselves in this situation and also see that you are here to call the game, not screw their team.

[Chin Ref]

Originally posted by devdog69
Might end up being a long story, but there are a couple of different stories to tell.

Varsity girls and boys games, homecoming, very large crowd, working a two-man crew. I had worked JV Tuesday night and had the visitors then also, so, I was expecting some grief about that from them. I had nearly T-d the varsity girls coach on Tuesday night during the JV girls game, and probably would have if not for knowing that I had them in a Varsity game on Friday. Girls game really went pretty well, it was a 20-point margin in the end with the visitors winning. Had one crash in the first few minutes that I no-called and probably should have got a charge, my partner the R, had pre-gamed that he wanted a call if we had a crash, and I went right out and no-called one. Girl had great defensive position, dribbler comes in makes slight contact, tries to stop, passes the ball off, maybe extended her forearm slightly and they both fell the floor.

After a 45-minute break in between games where they introduced every homecoming queen since 1978 (seriously), my partner and I head out at about the 15-minute mark. My partner is a good official and I know him from our football crew last year. He worked two rounds of sub-state basketball playoffs last year so he is a qualified official, however, he needs to hang out here more often to learn the finer points of the rules. We are walking around the court, when he grabs me by the arm and looks up. I turn to see two of the home team boys jump up, grab the rim, and pull it down about three-four inches. We quickly look at each other and say "oh sh*!t". He takes off towards the table and I track down the two kids that I saw doing it and get their numbers (not as easy as it sounds, they had warmups on and were a little reluctant). As I join in his conversation with the home boys head coach (also the AD), he is telling him that we are going to start the game with 6 free throws and the ball out of bounds. I pull him off to the side and explain to him that three technicals are indirectly charged to the head coach and he will be ejected, tell him that I have two numbers of the guilty parties and try to persuade him to only assess two technicals because I didn't see the other one and we don't have a number. He doesn't think that three indirect's would be assessed, says it's only one to the head coach, and is adamant (sp) that he saw three. At this time, visiting coach is chanting "i've got three", and home coach is questioning whether grasping is illegal or if it's only dunking and asks us to look it up to make sure. I volunteer to do so and quickly come back and show it to him. While I'm gone, partner tells v-coach, h-coach, both administrators, and the table personnel that we will start with 3 techs, and 3 team fouls (I added that 11, & 13 will start with one personal) and instructed the table to announce it before the game. We went in the locker room at about 4 minutes as both teams left the floor. Once behind closed doors, I let him have it, "We have got this really screwed up now" I say and show him the penalty for grasping the ring which is, of course, and indirect on the coach for each one. Tell him "if you would have slowed down, took your time and listened to what I was trying to explain to you, we could have avoided some of this mess". He agrees and is beginning to panic, I tell him what's done is done, let's go from here. I do understand it wasn't all his fault, mind you, I should have been more forceful and took charge more, but, that's not easy to do with a more experienced partner. He decides to stick with what he told everybody, three T's, but no coach ejection. We went back out, told both coaches what we should have done, that we had made a mistake and were going with our original ruling, which was fine with the visiting coach. He said "I don't want him dumped, either." We removed a high school age fan during the announcement of the penalty, but, for the most part, the rest of the game went fairly well. I felt like my partner was giving the home team an unfair advantage at times on his calls, probably subconscious if at all. That could have also been because they were getting shellacked by 20 points. I just tried to call my game and forget about the pre-game events.

Devdog69 - Would you worry the visiting team has the right to protest for 3-indirect T assessed to home team coach who stayed on for the game?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by bigwhistle
Did you try any preventative officiating before taking the floor? A couple of sharp tweets of the whistle before you take the floor to assume your duties will let the kids konw that showboat time is over and that they have to stay off of the rim.

I don't think we have any responsibility to do this. The rules are the rules. The players know them and the coaches know them. There's plenty of time to showboat before, during, and after practice. No reason to do it before the game.

[Brian Watson]

If I see three, I am going to call three. Of course, I am also going to make sure I have the numbers for all three before I step into that big pile of meadow muffin. If I don't/can't then we only call what we know.

As far as ejecting the coach, it is not my problem. This is not a new rule. It is his responsibility to let his kids know it is not acceptable. This is why it is an indirect. He should have been running down the sideline yelling at his kids after the first one, let alone all three.

My guess is his philosophy is this: "Dunk if therefs aren't there, I don't care".

Guess what, a quick trip to the showers might have changed it.


To throw some gas on this, does everyone agree that the "original" ruling should have stayed? I would have made my "know it all" partner sack up, and pitch the coach. My explaination would have been "when you made me look up the rule to ensure grasping was a T, I noticed that yu should be ejected, sorry buh-bye".