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Old Sun Jan 27, 2002, 12:05am
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I had a girl's varsity game tonight. In the second quarter a sub for team A came to the table. The scorekeeper sounded the horn for the sub. I beckoned the sub and she didn't come in. I beckoned a second time and verbalized loudly for her to come in. She still didn't come in. I beckoned and verbalized a third time and the coach stood up and said, "never mind, not now." and sent her back to the bench. Our association president was watching the game because he was scheduled to do the boy's game after the girl's game. He asked me whether that was legal. I said that I didn't know as it had never occured before for me. He asked me to look into this and see if it is legal. So, is it legal? How would some of you have handled this?
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Old Sun Jan 27, 2002, 12:45am
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I'm not showing mercy on this; they were holding up the game, so I tell the coach she is either coming in or I'm issuing a T: By rule, T for not coming in immediately when beckoned.
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Old Sun Jan 27, 2002, 01:03am
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I wave him/her in.

If they don't come in right away, I walk closer, raise my voice, and may give a tweet on the whistle. I then say again, "Come on in" or something like that. If they don't come in, then play goes on. At that point it's too late to come in.

..Mike
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Old Sun Jan 27, 2002, 01:42am
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Slider,

What rule indicates that you give a "T" to a player who doesn't come on to the floor when beckoned?

Z
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Old Sun Jan 27, 2002, 05:59pm
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Try Officials Manual--Page 20--Section 118. "A substitue is expected to enter promptly when beckoned. Failure to do so is a "TECHNICAL FOUL.

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Old Sun Jan 27, 2002, 06:03pm
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It could be a DELAY of game T
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Old Sun Jan 27, 2002, 06:17pm
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Lightbulb Hard to justify in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally posted by APHP
Try Officials Manual--Page 20--Section 118. "A substitue is expected to enter promptly when beckoned. Failure to do so is a "TECHNICAL FOUL.

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Well, the Official's Manual is not the Rulebook. And I do not see anything that warrants us to give a T under the Rulebook. Under rule 10-2 that is about Substitution Ts, this is not listed as one of them. I realize that the Official's Manual says this, but I think they are talking about coming on to the court without reporting. But I could be wrong but that is my take on the whole section.

I think you also need to use common sense, if a player wants to stay at the table, then do not bring him or her in. I bet the player will be alert the next time. But do everything you can to make sure that the player knows they are allowed to come in. Sometimes they do not move because they do not know it is the proper time.

Just my take on it.

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Old Sun Jan 27, 2002, 06:40pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Devana
It could be a DELAY of game T
Pistol
I guess you could make a case for this under 10.3.7.a (Delay the game by such acts as: preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play.)

I think this would be a stretch, though. If you force the player to enter, then you are sending the message to the coach that when he sends a player to the table and you beckon that player in, that player is coming in - period. I don't think pulling a player back once they've reported is any different in theory than trying to insert a player without having reported. Either one is not following the prescribed procedure and should not be allowed.
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Old Sun Jan 27, 2002, 06:59pm
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I Agree totally with Mark thats why I used the conditional tense in my post. "Could" is the operative word!
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Old Sun Jan 27, 2002, 07:19pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Padgett
If you force the player to enter, then you are sending the message to the coach that when he sends a player to the table and you beckon that player in, that player is coming in - period. I don't think pulling a player back once they've reported is any different in theory than trying to insert a player without having reported. Either one is not following the prescribed procedure and should not be allowed.
I have no idea what you said there

I thought there was a Casebook for a T here, but I can't find it. However, in addition to the Officials Manual, there is a mention of a T for DELAY for a similar situation on page 49 of the Handbook, (7) near top of the page.

And, it does make sense. I wager that there was a Casebook on this in the past.

Finally, I don't know what bad message this sends to a coach. It tells him that he shouldn't delay the game. And, this isn't equivalent to normally calling a player back to the bench; the player has been beckoned, and is disregarding an official--most officials would T a coach when he disobeys a command to quit arguing, for example.
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Old Sun Jan 27, 2002, 08:07pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Slider
Finally, I don't know what bad message this sends to a coach. It tells him that he shouldn't delay the game. And, this isn't equivalent to normally calling a player back to the bench; the player has been beckoned, and is disregarding an official--most officials would T a coach when he disobeys a command to quit arguing, for example.
That doesn't mean that mosct officials would T a player for not coming in when beckoned. one thing has nothing to do with the other.

Personally, I'll beckon a player twice and then we're putting the ball in play. There's no need for a T. If he/she ignores you, give a stop sign and signal to your partner to put the ball in play.

Let's look for a reason not to call a T, folks.
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Old Sun Jan 27, 2002, 08:26pm
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I concur with Bktballref

Is it good game management to "T" the player for inattentiveness (or whatever reason she may be staring into the wild blue yonder)?

I see this situation as having two options:
1. Beckon a second time, she "gets focused" and enters the game.
2. Beckon a second time, player continues to daydream. Resume play without her.

With option two the coach might get a bit upset, but you offered the substitute ample opportunity to enter.

Additional note: there are other factors to consider. Is this the first "delayed" sub, are the timer and scorer competent, has the coach been "playing manipulations games" prior to this incident, etc...


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Old Sun Jan 27, 2002, 09:15pm
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You and BktBallRef make many good points.

I think I will be lenient now, depending on the game; guess I was in a whacking mood when I first posted (and I thought there was a Casebook to back me up)
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