Speaking of visible counts...
 

mick's comment that in some games, visible counts start and last longer got me thinking.

How do you admin your visible counts?

I see some officials have a hand motion extended as soon as a player touches the ball. I wonder if they're counting "zero" in their head. :confused: If I know they're new, I have no problem asking them about it.

I've often wondered that myself when watching some counts. I guess depending on the level of the players, some officials make a slower count than normal. I always try to be consistent in my timing when giving a visible count for my own benefit and practice.
That said, I always have at least a full second elapsed before I have my arm extended.

When the ball is secured by the thrower, I start my my arm.
When my arm is extended at shoulder height, I have One.

When the ball is first touched, I drop my arm in front of me, kind of like I'm starting a "beat", then I bring it up and then out for the "one" count. It's almost like I'm counting as "and one" to start.

It's hard to describe. To visualize it properly, you'd have to see me.

Of course, if you watch enough episodes of "America's Most Wanted", eventually you'll see one with me in it. :cool:

Don't verbalize that when near one of the benches.

...Too easy....:cool:

I knew it would be. But sometimes, you just have to give back to the community. :rolleyes:

visible count
 

to quote dave hall, "be dumb like a fox." He instructed us, and it makes sense to me, to be slow in starting your five count; his philosophy is that the sooner you start the count, the sooner you will get to five and have to call a violation; he wants to avoid having to call that kind of stuff, so he tries to be slow about getting the count going; coaches are not going to notice that, they just pay attention once a couple seconds go by and they do not see a count;

anyway, those were his thoughts on the issue

That'd be good for an elementary tournament where the teams don't bust their butts trying to play intense defense.

Why punish the defense?

Jmo, but I think that the only firm rule on how to handle counts is that there is <b>no</b> firm rule. There's too many different situations and circumstances that you might encounter that may require the use of a little judgment and restraint at times.

Well, that's fine, but to start the count late "to avoid having to call that kind of stuff" seems to show a total disregard for the rule.

If a team is playing hard defense (as Mick points out) I know if I don't start my count I'll hear from the bench & the players on defense. So I always start my count right away.

Agree completely, it irritates me to no end when I see counts that are obviously slow...this is no different to me than not calling a travel when a guy takes an extra step, if a team is busting their a**es playing defense you owe it to them to give them an honest count....that being said no count will be perfect, but just like you should practice your jump ball toss, you should also practice your count imo.....I do it all the time in summer league games when I can watch the clock and compare to my count coming up the floor...

I agree. How about if we close our eyes every time a player drives to the hoop "to avoid having to call any fouls"? The rules are there for a reason. If you're going to ignore them, just stay home. :confused:

Guys, Mick was not saying literally to not ever call a violation. I think he is saying to give them a true count and take your time. I think it is better to be a little slow than to be very quick on this call.

For the record, I call 5 second calls all the time. So I have no problem making a call like this. But I want that call to be made without being in a hurry.

Peace

Agree with you that the count should be true, but IMO being slow is just as bad as being fast, and you have far more officials who are slow than who are fast...some brutally slow...

I count: one one thousand, two one thousand...in my head and my visible count follows that. I do have to admit that I sometimes count a bit slower in JH girls' games. After a rebound, I tend to forget the "one" and then start at two...I'm more focused on the rebound and possible fouls...then I focus on the 10 second count.

Many officials start the count before the thrower has the ball. My point is just wait a second or half a second then start your count. I do not know many people that have a stop watch to know if we are 100% accurate. I would much rather have a count at 6 seconds and 5 1/2 seconds than 4 seconds to call this violation.

Peace

good words of experience JRut. IMO, at the middle school level, we do not add anything to the game by STRICTLY enforcing 5-second counts to the exact second or non-contested (no press) 10-second counts. It is far more enjoyable to have a flow to your game rather than interupters at this level. I believe we are all on the same page here; use common sense for the game you are officiating.

Rut - it wasn't Mick with whom we were disagreeing. In fact, we were agreeing with Mick that not making the call or fudging on it to avoid making the call is wrong. Check who said what again. :)

JMO, but I disagree with this. I would rather be a little bit slow and perhaps miss a close violation than be a little too fast and call a violation that wasn't really there.

The best thing for lower grade (or any grade, for that matter) teams in a game is to have all the refs who work their games call them the same. That way they can concentrate on playing, not on the calls. If all the refs called all the games strictly according to the rules, the consistency of officiating would be at it's optimum and it would make it incredibly easy for teams. They would no longer have to "adjust" to any particular person or crew. If all of us agreed to modify a certain call a certain way and we all did that all the time, then that would become the "de facto" rule and it would work the same way for the team. But - the odds of that happening vs. the odds of calling the game by the rules is slim to none. That's why we should all call all the games according to the rules. It's the most logical conclusion and results in the highest level of consistency, which is best for everyone.

My point is don't be satisfied with either, being "a little slow" or "a little fast", it is something that should be practiced (along with the lost art of throwing a good jump ball)...nobody is a machine, nobody will ever get it perfect, but if you make a point to practice it (with a clock) you can get darn close....

And the moral of the story is… be patient on the whistle!

That's cool. It's a good point. I was only addressing the part of your post that said "being slow is just as bad" as being fast. I personally think being slow is not just as bad. I think it's far worse to count too fast than to count too slowly.

So much depends on the game itself. In a close game where defense is really working hard, you start the count as soon as it's appropriate, count exactly to the clock, and call the violation right at 5 seconds. In a sloppy game where defense is just sort of standing around, or is clearly not taking things seriously, you slow down a little and see how it plays out. Where there's a fumble as the count might be starting, be a little slow, to be sure there's really possession. When the ball is being passed quickly from teammate to teammate, I might start the count in head right on time but not necessarily get my arm going until 2 or 2-1/2 seocnds. A lot of this stuff is somewhat variable.

But I will say this in answer to a previous question. On a throw-in, and in a very tight defense, I will often give a visible count at "0". I've been questioned about it before, and when I explained, it was appreciated. It means I give 6 (or 11) slashes instead of 5 or 10, but once a player or coach knows that's my way, it gives them a good solid basis for deciding what to do. They KNOW where they stand, and they like that.

I'm not sure I get how this works...as has been discussed here if it takes your arm 1 second to swing on each count then why do you need 6 or 11 swings?

I do not disagree with you; however, as has been mentioned on this board many times, each state, each chapter, and each association has its own recommendations how we are to officiate these rules at what level. Which I believe are a direct result of coaching influence by school district. That said, there will always be inconsistency, even among those calling in the same association. As you mentioned, until everyone calls it by the rules there can be no consistency.

Consistency is about everyone calling it the same or in a similar way. The rules do not necessarily have anything to do with that equation. Just because everyone calls handchecking does not mean you are being consistent.

The bottom line is you are not going to get everyone to call a 5 second count with the same accuracy of stop watch. Even those can be off by milliseconds.

Peace

Juulie, not to be picky, but wouldn't it make sense to start your visible count the same way for every situation?
I would think that by doing it differently in the same game it would cause more confusion for the coach and players and they wouldn't be sure where they stand as far as the count goes.

In this case, I would think that consistency would be defined by everyone calling it when it is supposed to be called, everyone starting it when it is supposed to be started and everyone trying their best to hit five seconds as close as they can.

Jewel may be counting hither and fro'. :)

My arm is fully extended and "chops" at 0. If you count that as a swing, then I need 6 or 11 swings because.... well, I"m sure you can do the math.

PYRef -- I do it pretty consistently on a throw-in, and when there's close defense with any chance of a violation. When the ball is being passed fairly quickly from player to player, and the violation isn't likely, well, I don't like looking like a windmill.

You begin counting at 0? You really are a machine!

I heard she counts in binary.
violation at 101.

Do you think she also counts like this:

:D

Damn! Beat me to it! :mad:

:p

Edit: Beat instead of Bet. How embarassing to make that mistake. And Snaq had to go and quote the mistake. Argh! :)

:D

for( int seconds = 0 ; seconds < 5 ; ++seconds )
swing_arm( FOR_1_SECOND );

if( throwin != released )
signal_violation();

It's even more embarrassing to misspell embarrassing. ;)

Doun't yu haf spel chek?

;)

http://www.arar93.dsl.pipex.com/mds9...son_doh_02.gif


Yup. It's called an elementary school education. :p

Nice picture of Billy Packer rehearsing. :p

He rehearses?

First, he hearses. But he's so bad at it, he has to rehearse. :p

I can do the math, it's the physics I'm having trouble with.

You consider the chop as count zero? That's not an arm swing, is it?

As we know, there are only 10 kinds of people: those who know binary, and those who don't. ;)

Ha! <iiiiiiii>

Unfortunately, that is probably what it will take to get him off the air. But, then again CBS may do a cardboard cutout of him like they had for fans at the NAC tournament a few years ago in Hartford.

"Chop" was a bad choice of words. When I do this, it's an arm swing at count zero. Arm is fully extended out to the side, and gets to fully extended at zero.

I think that this is going to come back and bite you one day... If someone sees you counting 10 on a backcourt on video and you don't have a violation, that is pretty hard to justify!

It doesn't need justification, just explanation. it's not that tough -- 10 strokes =9 seconds. Still, coaches can be difficult when it serves their purposes. I"ll consider what you're saying.

I guess what's working is giving a physical signal that control has begun and I'm counting. Any suggestions for how to convey that differently from a stroke of the counting arm.

Start your count when you reach a second. Coaches count our signals so do not be so sure.

I used to do what you are advocating a long time ago and I was told to stop. Would you do the same thing during your 5 second count? You do not need to convince anyone your count has started. Keep it simple and leave your mechanics as the explanation. If you have to come back and explain, that could lead to other conversations you might not want to have.

Peace

Yeah - but they may or may not buy that explanation! :)

I would have the first arm count be at 1, as normal. I've never had a coach start yelling immediately about a count -- they only start yelling after 2-3 seconds if you are not counting. That's been my experience anyway...

Only problem is that you often can't give an explanation to someone who's watching you on tape . . . or to the crowd . . . or to a camp clinician.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. Like Brad said, the coaches just want you to start counting at some point "soon" - they don't care about the exact zero point. If you absolutely feel the need to indicate something on a 10 second count, you can "point" the other way, although this is much more of a "D-I only" mechanic.

When I do counts, I extend my forearm straight in and out at shoulder height parallel to the floor. Before I give the "1" swing, I bring my elbow and arm up (as if I were on the in-swing of a count). I guess you could use that, too, to make sure you start with a 0 count.