Whacking Coaches
 

I just got back from our Conference clinic and it looks like a lot of coaches are going to be getting whacked. They told us if the coach leaves the coaching box that "YOU WHACK HIM". There were no ifs, ands or butts about it. If the team is standing up, you whack them too unless it is after a great play, then you give them reasonable time to sit back down.

I wanna see how serious this gets. I'm too young in all of my conferences to do this, but if my CC gives me the go ahead I will.

I bet you won't stick around long in your conferences if you keep this attitude.

This seems pretty draconian. Have there been problems in the past with coaches not listening to warnings, or perhaps refs being sloppy about enforcing the rule?

It would seem to me that one (and one only) warning first would not be out of line and might accomplish the desired compliance.

I agree with you Mark. But this is also why I took the position on your previous post that showed the YouTube video. I think that officials need to be careful if all we do is give a T for every violation of the box. The only way this would work is if every official gets on board and the league supports all Ts with that procedure. The problem is most leagues or conferences do not support their officials for this kind of call which brings the reluctance and often in consistency in when this is called.

Peace

I agree with Dan & Mark. You have to consider the circumstances. If the coaching box violation is an incidental thing, a simple "Coach, don't forget the box, we've been instructed to strictly enforce it." will usually rectify the issue. If it's a clearly deliberate act, go ahead & issue the T.

With the bench it's a similar issue. If the team on the bench stands other than when allowed by rule, "Coach, you need to get your bench under control" should precede the T, unless the act is blatant enough to warrant immediate penalty.

That said, don't keep warning. Warn once, then penalize at next occurence.

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment. Perhaps Dan and Mark's position has been how the rule has been enforced so far. But, as in unsporting T's, this has also been an excuse for officials not taking care of business. So now maybe the committee is saying, "We've let officials have some leeway, and examples like the YouTube video still happen. So now the "judgement" has been taken away. Enforce as written."

When a player steps OOB with the ball, do we just slide up along the side of the player and whisper in their ear, "Hey, be careful, make sure you stay in bounds next time"?

I'll remain deeply skeptical until I see two things:

1) The big dogs enforcing this rigidly in big games.
2) Officials being fired for not enforcing it.
3) Coaches being told by the conference to STFU and get back in the box when they complain about getting whacked.

Okay, so...that's three.

We watch players, not coaches. Just like I would not advise an official to call a T for something they do not clearly see, I would not advise an official to make a call just because someone was a step out of the box or just over the line. Also, a violation is very different than a T and it is clear that we treat those very different than when we call a T. Even all violations are not treated the same. Three seconds is looked at very different than an out of bounds violation. ;)

Peace

Actually my comment had more to do with this

IMO if his conference wants their officials to take a hard line on this then he should just do it. Being young isn't an excuse to do otherwise.

But isn't not watching coaches the problem? Isn't that why the various committees have been using bench decorum as a POI, because officials need to be watching the benches more often? Sure, we shouldn't call something we don't see, but maybe we should be seeing more; after all, the bench is under our jurisdiction.

There was an Illinois game I attended last year (non-Big 10) where the visiting coach squatted down and watched play from the corner inbounds. (Picture 2-3 feet in from the sideline, and 2-3 feet in off the baseline.) This in the first half, so this was in front of their bench, while IL was on offense. At one point, an IL player had to side-step the coach, but nothing obvious was said to the coach. Hey, he wasn't screaming at the refs, so why should they concern themselves, right?

Also, your argument about a T being very different than a violation isn't as true in college. With a violation, you lose a possession. With a T, (and missed FT's), you've lost nothing because of POI.

I agree. And I also agree it will be interesting to see how this is handled by "the big dogs" with the big name coaches. I would think at that level, with supervisors backing the officials, it won't take long for the coaches to comply.

Watching coaches are not the priority. I realize that in the perfect world that many would like to live, we can see and call everything that takes place. I personally would love to have eyes in the back of my head or on the sides of my head. Most likely most officials are only going to see coaches during times when the ball is not live and when the ball is next to the bench.

Let me let you guys in on a little secret. I know this is going to shock many of you. The reality is that officials that work D1 ball, do not listen to the NCAA, they listen to their supervisors. If the supervisor they work for wants something done, that is what they do. You cannot work the NCAA Tournament without the conferences making recommendations to the NCAA. You cannot work D1 ball if the supervisor of a conference does not hire you. And I can tell you from knowledge that what happens in one conference might not happen in another conference. All you have to do is have a talk with an official that works multiple conferences and supervisors and that will become very obvious to anyone.

I am going to have to disagree. College supervisors are much more explicit in their opinions on how things are called and what is expected. Most HS conferences do not have a meeting with all the conference staff or have camps only for those that work in that conference. I can tell you as someone that has worked college ball that who you work for makes a big difference in what you might call in their conference. Usually those things are not very big, but it can affect things like where you stand and how you enforce certain rules.

Peace

When I want a coach whacked, I just give the contract to my cousin Guido.

MTD, Sr.

Sounds like the NCAA will be sending some business his way. :D

Maybe that's what they're trying to say - we need to <B>make</B> it a priority. It hasn't been for a long time, and the YouTube video and my IL game example (as well as countless others) are the result. At the minimum the result doesn't look very good, and at the worst, the coach is certainly gaining an unfair advantage.

Of couse the officials do what the supervisor tells them; that's not a secret. I have had supervisors tell me to do little things that are contrary to specific rules and mechanics. What we don't know is whether the officials did what the supervisor told them in either case. In the IL game, I do not remember seeing any of the crew before, so they were probably new on staff since this was an "unimportant" non-conference game. We don't know if they were given a "good job" for not interrupting the game, or if they were ripped a new one for letting such an obvious thing go. The same with the officials in the video - did they get reprimanded for letting the coach wander like she did? We just don't know.

As far as post-season assignments, you may get recommended if you follow what the supervisor tells you, but that doesn't mean the NCAA will use you if you have been told not to follow a specific POI. Realistically, if an official has not paid attention to bench decorum all season, how far do you think they will advance if they're not used to paying attention?

Fwiw, I may not necessarily like having to pay more attention to the bench and the coaches, but that's what it looks like it's coming to. We, as officials, haven't been enforcing it well enough, so now it looks like the pendulum has swung over to no tolerance. It will be interesting to see how much they stick to it over the course of the season.

And there are many that would disagree with what you are saying. I could give a damn where a coach stands and if they are a toe over the line or not. It does nothing to affect how I call the game and it does not give them an advantage unless they are directly interfering with play.

Well that is the reality. And until the NCAA starts hiring officials from all level of basketball, then you are going to get philosophies from one conference to another. This is not just a basketball thing. The SEC has been known as the laughing stock of college football because they advocated a mechanic that was outdated and not accepted by anyone. All the NCAA could do is who they gave assignments to for bowl games.

The NCAA only picks the recommended officials from the conferences. The NCAA does not pick officials the conferences do not recommend based on my understanding.

No tolerance whether it is a basketball rule or a school policy are stupid. There has to be some judgment and common sense used. And until you see it enforced as you think it will be, and then I will stand by my statement. I bet in the end the enforcement will not come near where you are suggesting it will be.

I seriously doubt the NCAA would just put someone in the tournament that was not recommended by anyone. I would not expect someone to work a post-season HS tournament that did not get one rating or if that person did not receive any recommendations either.

Peace

This is not news. I posted an email from my D3 "commissioner", for lack of a better word, a couple weeks ago that said almost the exact same thing as btaylor's original post in this thread. The email I got said in part:

There are going to be a ton of T's early in the season, IMO.

You were missing my point - let's say a conference decides they don't like the "no tolerance" bench decorum rules that the NCAA is advocating. The officials might follow what the conference wants, and get recommended by the conference to the NCAA for post-season, but the NCAA might not actually use the officials from that conference. Or, even if the NCAA does use those officials, how far would they advance if they haven't been used to watching the bench all season?

I agree with you in the fact it will be very interesting to see how it plays out over the season. But it's not much different in real life - if someone takes advantage or extra liberties with a rule, usually the rule is clamped down extra hard before it's loosened again.

That's how I do it with my kids anyway.

Here is another reality you might not be aware of. Someone that works in a conference and that is recommended to work in the NCAA Tournament is likely working other conferences. Since you and I are in Big Ten Country and you referenced a Big Ten game. You do not work in the Big Ten without working other conferences in the region. So if you live in the Midwest and you work the Big Ten, you likely work other smaller conferences like the Horizon, MAC, Mid-Con (now Summit), Missouri Valley or maybe the Ohio Valley and Atlantic 10. And if you look at the so-called "Big dogs" of college officiating, they are hiring officials that work multiple conferences and the same people that are hired in the Big Ten, also are recommended in other conferences as well. And on the Women's side of the isle, there are assignors that assign 6-10 Division 1 conferences. So a supervisor has even more say than at the Men's side. So there might be some lip service to what is in the POE, but it does not mean there are going to be 100 more Ts because of it either.

Peace

It is in my conferences. If my CC says "you better not do it, let me handle it" (like I've been told before) then I will adhere to that.

Well I was sitting next to some "big dogs" when it was said and they had a look on there face that was like, "Dang we're going to have to actually do this."

You're too focussed on big dogs and little sh1ts.

Just do your job, you'll be OK (even in your conferences).

Here's the latest email I received from my D3 commissioner:

Interestingly, the first email I got says to whack for any reason that's not specifically allowed in the rulebook. But #3 above says to give a single warning before giving the T. That kind of waters it down. We'll have to wait and see what really happens, I guess.

It's actually really simple. If the NCAA or NHSL want to slow the game down, turn the focus of the game away from the players and the game and put it on the officials then this will happen. There isn't a snowballs chance in hell that this will happen. That's just my opinion. Why? In high school everytime a coach is ejected the school is fined $300. The high school leagues will be flooded with appeals from schools. If it does happen, it won't last long. It's bullsheeet. Officials don't want to watch the coach all the time and what official is going to "T" a coach after his best player misses a wide open 3 to win the game with 5 sec. remaining and the coach is standing 3 feet outside the box praying the shot goes in. GET REAL.

If they really wanted coaches in the box "24-7,"....here the little secret everyone needs to hear....THEY WOULD REQUIRE THEM TO SIT AT ALL TIMES...this would take away the need for a damn box. Some leagues do this already. But most of those are older and at some point going to change. The day they start calling a "T" for every coaches big toe that crosses the line, will be the day that officials start receiving bonuses for calling "T's." LOL

If I received a bonus for every T I ever called, Bill Gates would be at my house begging for spare change. :rolleyes:

All I ask is that someone post the YouTube of Coach K getting a T for leaving the coaching box near the end of a close Duke/NC game.

I think both sides of this argument are correct.
Btaylor is simply stating what many supervisors are saying. Whether the "big dogs" follow it is another issue. An official who works for one of the D1 supervisors called off a number of officials ("big dogs") who he already knows will not enforce this. This probably will not happen as it is written, but that is just the way things are. I don't always put too much faith in "big dogs" because they aren't all necessarily the best officials. Sure, supervisors and coaches might be happy/comfortable with them, but that doesn't mean they are calling correctly, it just means they aren't making waves - two different ways to look at it. The NCAA tape is proof of this. Where do they get examples of what NOT to do? The NCAA tournament (to a large extent at least).

According to what's posted above, Coach K wouldn't make it through the first half without picking up 2 on point 1c (vulgar language).

Can't find one. There is one of Coach K getting a T during a Duke/GT game, though.