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-   -   Right Number, Wrong name (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/3843-right-number-wrong-name.html)

Rookie Wed Jan 23, 2002 10:04am

Last night, the table called me over and told me that all the numbers in the book were correct, but two of the names had been reversed. For example 40 - Jones, 41 - Williams, when it should have been 40 - Williams, 41 - Jones.

The numbers were correct, I did not T the offending team, becuase as I remembered the rules dealt with changing numbers not names. Was I correct?

Bart Tyson Wed Jan 23, 2002 10:13am

I believe any change in the book is a T.

BktBallRef Wed Jan 23, 2002 10:42am

Quote:

Originally posted by Rookie
Last night, the table called me over and told me that all the numbers in the book were correct, but two of the names had been reversed. For example 40 - Jones, 41 - Williams, when it should have been 40 - Williams, 41 - Jones.

The numbers were correct, I did not T the offending team, becuase as I remembered the rules dealt with changing numbers not names. Was I correct?

If Jones was wearing 41 and the book has him as 40, and Williams was wearing 40 and the book has him as 41, how can the numbers be correct?

The numbers are wrong. It's 1 technical foul when brought to your attention.

Brian Watson Wed Jan 23, 2002 10:50am

I fall on the side of "leave it alone". The rules cover numbers only for a reason, we do not know who these players are, so there is no reason to get invovled.

What if the visiting team comes to you and says home number 13 in the book says it is scrub player, but we know for a fact it is star player who go suspended last week.

Are you going get involved with that? If there is a body in a number, in the book, that is all I care about. The rest is for the ad's and state to sort out.

I think we will only get ourselves in trouble if we don't.

Rookie Wed Jan 23, 2002 10:52am

While I see your point of view, when I read the rule book last night, the book covered situations where numbers need to be changed. I took that to be changing 42 to 41. I may be misreading the rule, or splitting hairs. But do we really care what name is next to a number?

zebraman Wed Jan 23, 2002 11:27am

If the numbers are right, I couldn't care less whose name is next to them. The names are only important in the box scores and that's not my jurisdiction.

Z

rainmaker Wed Jan 23, 2002 11:34am

I agree about "we don't care," but the rule is still there. I had a coach come to me and say that he had accidentally written "Sarah Doe" for number 43 when it should have been "Rebecca Doe" who was Sarah's sister. Sarah was not playing, but had played last week or something and was in the book. The coach said, "I'll have to take a technical, that's okay." Shoot, I couldn't have cared less, but it wasn't the book that told me, it was the coach, for Pete's sake!!! So we had to give them the T. It didn't matter one little bit either way, but I felt stupid but what choice did I have?

Rookie Wed Jan 23, 2002 11:39am

Rainmaker, can you reference the rule you are referring to?

rainmaker Wed Jan 23, 2002 11:45am

Quote:

Originally posted by Rookie
Rainmaker, can you reference the rule you are referring to?
See BktBallRef's references above. The rule says, "moving the feet." I take sliding to be a form of moving.

However, I will not call sliding on a bad floor with poor shoes, unless it appears that someone calculates to use the slide to gain an advantage, which fourth graders certainly are not capable of.

Wow, another run-on sentence... I've got to find some time to get back to Jane Austen and Dorothy L. Sayer.

Mark Padgett Wed Jan 23, 2002 12:07pm

Although it may seem it's not important to have the name match the correct number in the book, since we call fouls by number and would have the correct player be Dairy Queened if they got 5, think about having the wrong name if you had to report a player who got ejected for fighting.

That could turn out to be quite a mess, especially if suspensions were involved.

ChuckElias Wed Jan 23, 2002 12:37pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:

Originally posted by Rookie
Rainmaker, can you reference the rule you are referring to?
See BktBallRef's references above. The rule says, "moving the feet." I take sliding to be a form of moving.

However, I will not call sliding on a bad floor with poor shoes, unless it appears that someone calculates to use the slide to gain an advantage, which fourth graders certainly are not capable of.

Juules, did you get your posts crossed or something? :) I think Rookie was asking about the rule regarding changing the names in the book (as opposed to the rule regarding changing the NUMBERS in the book).

Quote:

Wow, another run-on sentence... I've got to find some time to get back to Jane Austen and Dorothy L. Sayer.
I am all over the Jane Austen reference, but who is Dorothy Sayer? Never heard that name before.

Chuck

bob jenkins Wed Jan 23, 2002 01:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rookie
Rainmaker, can you reference the rule you are referring to?
10-1-1 "Name and number of each squad member" -- I think it's implied that they go together (not -- all the names are in column A, and all the numbers are in column B, but none of the rows match).

10-1-2c

3.2.2A "EACH player must wear the number indicated in the scorebook ...

3.2.2E "change a number in the scorebook ... so it corresponds to what the squad member is wearing ... a technical foul is charged."

That should be enough.

Rookie Wed Jan 23, 2002 01:07pm

Is that NFHS?

Bart Tyson Wed Jan 23, 2002 03:03pm

HS or College, it is the same. You make a change in the book, it is a T.

Rookie Wed Jan 23, 2002 03:08pm

Not trying to be an jerk or anything, but I would like to see the NFHS rule that states, changing a players name (not number) is a T.

Bart Tyson Wed Jan 23, 2002 03:12pm

So One line says Jim #43 and the other says Joe 23, so we erase the names instead of the #'s. Any way you look at it Jim and Joe changed #'s.

Rookie Wed Jan 23, 2002 03:15pm

Bart, I guess this is where my problem lies. I read the number change rule to be changing numbers from 40 to 41.

I go back to my question, do we care what name is next to a number? (and an NFHS rule to back it up)

LarryS Wed Jan 23, 2002 03:21pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rookie
Not trying to be an jerk or anything, but I would like to see the NFHS rule that states, changing a players name (not number) is a T.
You can argue semantics all day long, but if player X had 23 and player Y had 32 (and they should have been reversed) you are changing a players number.

Therefore 3-2-2 applies:
ART. 2 . . . After the time limit specified in Article 1, a team is charged with a maximum of one technical foul regardless of how many infractions of the following are committed (See 10-1-1, 2 Penalty):

a. Changing a designated starter, unless necessitated by illness, injury, illegal equipment or apparel, etc., or to attempt a technical-foul free throw.
b. Adding a name to the squad list.
c. Requiring the scorer to change a squad member's or player's number in the scorebook.
d. Requiring a player to change to the number in the scorebook.
e. Having identical numbers on squad members and/or players.

There's your NFHS rule :)

Bart Tyson Wed Jan 23, 2002 03:21pm

It doesn't matter what we think. The book is to be correct. If we have knowledge that the book is wrong, then we must correct it.

Mark Padgett Wed Jan 23, 2002 04:33pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I am all over the Jane Austen reference, but who is Dorothy Sayer? Never heard that name before.

Chuck

Dorothy L. Sayers (not Sayer) was a British mystery writer. She died in 1957. Probably her most popular detective was Lord Peter Whimsey.

Bart Tyson Wed Jan 23, 2002 04:37pm

Now that i know Dorothy L. Sayers(not Sayer) is a writer, who is Jane Austen?

Rookie Wed Jan 23, 2002 04:40pm

Thanks guys, I guess I kicked this one, I'm sure I will not get this wrong in the future.

bigwhistle Wed Jan 23, 2002 04:57pm

Don't find out about name/number problems
 
Want another way to fix this solution??

Tell the table before the game that there will be no "book Ts" tonight......and if there is a problem with the numbers, just fix it and don't tell us about it.

The game is for the kids, and the gamesmanship by the coaches and whatnot should not have any part of the outcome. Let the game be decided on the floor, and not by an oversite by a manager or coach.

I realize that nobody here will like this solution, since it does not in any way follow the book. But then again, when you get to the major tournaments, the officials are instructed not to worry with the book. Wonder why? Hmmmm..

Blast away, oh protectors of the written word. :)

BktBallRef Wed Jan 23, 2002 06:35pm

My reply.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by bigwhistle
Want another way to fix this solution??

Tell the table before the game that there will be no "book Ts" tonight......and if there is a problem with the numbers, just fix it and don't tell us about it.

The game is for the kids, and the gamesmanship by the coaches and whatnot should not have any part of the outcome. Let the game be decided on the floor, and not by an oversite by a manager or coach.

I realize that nobody here will like this solution, since it does not in any way follow the book. But then again, when you get to the major tournaments, the officials are instructed not to worry with the book. Wonder why? Hmmmm..

Blast away, oh protectors of the written word. :)


I'll just say :(.

BTW, I've never been told to ignore book mistakes in any tournament that I've ever officiaited in. They may tell them that in the NCAA tournament but I don't see it happening in high school.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 23rd, 2002 at 05:50 PM]

Slider Wed Jan 23, 2002 06:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rookie
Thanks guys, I guess I kicked this one, I'm sure I will not get this wrong in the future.
Just in case you are still wavering, think of this: Bob, #23 gets 4 fouls, he switches shirts with #14 who only has one foul--the fouls are reported by number, not by name, so now Bob #14 now only has one foul.

That just doesn't work.

The suggestion by BigWhistle above works, if you don't know about an infraction then you can't penalize it; however, if you do discover an infraction you have a duty to penalize it.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed Jan 23, 2002 11:14pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rookie
Not trying to be an jerk or anything, but I would like to see the NFHS rule that states, changing a players name (not number) is a T.

Read BktBllRef and Bob Jenkins postings above. They did an excellent job of explaining why the orginal posting is a technical foul.

rainmaker Thu Jan 24, 2002 03:18am

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I am all over the Jane Austen reference, but who is Dorothy Sayer? Never heard that name before.

Chuck

Dorothy L. Sayers (not Sayer) was a British mystery writer. She died in 1957. Probably her most popular detective was Lord Peter Whimsey.

To answer Chuck's question, yes I did get my posts crossed. I'm not sure what went wrong. If you enjoy detective fiction (not the dark Dashiell Hamnett type, but the details of a situation type) you'll love Dorothy L. Sayers. She is a fabulous writer, and her books are tremendous. Then, once you are addicted to her writing, you can delve into her Christian works such as The Man Born to be King, and Are Women Human? and Christian Letters to a Post-Christian World. She was a very strange person in many ways, (like another famous Dorothy, she smoked cigars from time to time) but an incredible thinker and writer. She was a friend of "The Inklings" if that literary reference means anything to you, although she never "joined".

To answer another question, Jane Austen was the greatest British writer until Dorothy L. Sayers. She wrote Pride and Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility, Emma, Northanger Abbey, Mansfield Park, and the first and second drafts of Persuasion. She was the daughter of a vicar, and never married, but her writing captured the social atmosphere of middle class Britain in the early 1800's as well as any writing ever did. She is witty, subtle and incisive in her style, and very much in tune with human frailties and foibles. Her writings were popular from the very beginning, and have never stopped selling, although they have enjoyed a recent surge in readership, probably due to three new film versions of her works--Pride and Prerjudice, Sense and Sensibility and Emma. I personally wish someone would do Northanger Abbey, since I find it extremely amusing, but perhaps it is just too vapid.

Well, that's more than most of you probably care to know about English literature.

Back to the hoops...

dblref Thu Jan 24, 2002 08:20am

rainmaker:

You continue to impress me. Not only are you a student of the game (good questions), but you are also a student of mystery books. I read a lot (at least a book a week), but I have never read any Dorothy Sayer(s)...did'nt look back to see correct name.


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