2-man To question...
 

with the new change in where you stand on TOs, how are you working the 1st horn for the TO...are both officials going over to the huddle and telling them 1st horn? or is just the official who doesn't have the ball going over to both huddles and telling them 1st horn? how are you all handling that?

i worked my first 2-man last night with my usual partner. and i must say either one of us like the positioning on TOs. And we tried both ways of getting them out of the huddle last night. just wondering what the rest of the officiating world is doing with this.

thanks!

Since I don't have my books yet, I can't say officially. In 2 person, I would think the person at the table center court should warn both teams. The team farest from the ball first. Then the next team as he's walking to get into position to restart the game. The only problem is when you're away from the bench with the ball. I think you need to stay with where the ball's going to be inbounded.

What I'm doing now is instead of saying 1st horn, I'll say 5 seconds left blue if I warned the other bench first. You must communicate your expectations of this in your pre-game conference with the captains and coaches. Then it works like a charm.

What is the new mechanic ?
Thanks.

We discussed this in our last association meeting prior to the season beginning. Here's how we are handling it locally (we haven't received our FED books yet):

1. Team that called the time-out gets told "first horn" first
2. If the ball is to be put in play table-side, the official with the ball gives the warning to the team s/he is near
3. If the ball is to be put in play anywhere else besides the table-side sideline, the center official gives both teams horn warnings.

Seems to be working well so far.

It's actually reverting to a previous mechanic for where officials stand on a time out in a 2 person crew. I believe it's that the official who will administer the succeeding throw-in goes to the throw-in spot with the ball. The other official goes to the centerline midway between the table-side sideline and the circle.

BITS is correct.

This way was done for a year, perhaps 2, maybe 5-6 years ago??

IIRC, short TOs have the centre-line official closer to the table sideline, and full TOs have him/her closer to the opposite sideline.

I forgot about that part. Thanks for the reminder.

Bits and Jugglin',
Thanks.

I'm not sure this is the way it was several years ago, but I think the way you stated it is confusing. The non-inbounding official should be at center court in front of circle, 30 second TO, table side, back of circle center court for full TO. I didn't quite get this for your discription.

Try reading it more slowly next time.

Jugglin' used the correct terminology. Almost everyone knew what he meant by tableside and opposite.
Try it. You'll like it. ;)

That's because I didn't write a discription. In my description, I didn't clarify where the front of the circle is, because I know of no definition that determines where the front of the circle is. Is it the R's side of the cirlce or the U's side of the circle? And why?

I did mention, however, that the non-inbounding official stands in a position according to the type of TO granted.

My text probably isn't the best for newer officials such as yourself. :p

Maybe he was confused by the metric spelling for "center." :D

Damn - I thought I could go a whole day without seeing that word! :(

I'm surprised it took this long for someone to mention. :p

Well, that point is about as dumb as my mispelling of description. The front of the circle is determined by the table, period.

Not trying to get into a pissing match here but you should understand that a veteran official did not ask this question and i simply wanted to clarify what you stated in the interest of the person asking the question, in case he didn't have a clue of what you just stated. I have been officiating since 1990 and I struggle with that definition. Sometimes, we are our own worse enemy's.

"Our own worst enemy's" what?
Our own worst enemy's friend?
Our own worst enemy's lawyer?
Also, just for clarification. That fact that something confuses you does not make it confusing.

John Bark has been around here for 5 years. Yes, he is an experienced official.

I don't care how long Mr. Bark has been officiating, this is what he said....

i worked my first 2-man last night with my usual partner.

Again, read more slowly. Speed reading is getting you into trouble.

In particular, the part in red indicates he has officiated quite a bit. Implied in this statement is the following phrase: "since the change." Now, reading slowly, you should be able to place that phrase in the proper place in the sentence. I'm pretty sure my 2nd grader could do it.
Also, the fact that it was his first 2-man indicates he has been officiating 3-man; not something rookie officials normally get to do.

So, read more slowly. It might end up saving us all a lot of time.

Can I get that on official Old School Approved Ruling letterhead? :p

Wow; in 7 years here, I'd never thought of such a thing. Thanks! (Is a smilie required?)

Oh, my !
You need to put all the words together in order to get the true meaning.

I probably shouldn't respond, but FWIW, I find your explanation more confusing than the other. For example, I have no idea what "table side, back of circle center court" means.

In any event, I'm sure that the OP now knows where to stand (by the book, and recognizing that it might be different in his / her association).

Sounds like tennis to me.

I like SWMOzebra's approach. I will inquire tonight at our chapter training what our method will be. I still want to check on fouls, t.o.s remaining, etc at every opportunity.

You feel the need to know what:

Fouls per team ?
Fouls per best player ?
Time-outs remaining ?

Why?

No, not for implied favoritism, for knowledge of where I am in the game. How many t.o.'s each coach has remaining. Are we approaching a possible extra time out call? If a player is in foul trouble it keeps me aware that we may soon have an interupter to replace a player and I would like to expedite the process and manage the remaining players. In my mind it keeps me focused on the game. Based on your question, do you feel this information is not necessary? Am I considering things that are wasting my time?

If you think a team might be out of time outs, you could check so you can notify the coach.

If you think a team might be near 7 or 10 fouls you can check so you can help avoid a correctable error.

The only thing out of that list I care to know is the team foul situation. But I will not go out of my way to the table to figure it out. Usually this information is on the scoreboard and if I just look up that will be answered for me. I do not want to be at the table during timeouts unless there is a problem that needs to be addressed. These situations are not problems.

Peace

Wouldn't a T.O. be a good time to do this? I also check the score at breaks to hopefully avoid possible errors later. Any other suggestions on administrative techniques? Are there routines that many of you follow?

I would say as an official you would be wasting your time with the minute stuff. The table will notify you at the appropriate time. I would just say officiate the game.

Splute,
If it makes you feel better, more confortable, then that's what is most important, I s'pose. Personally, I do my best to stay as far away from the table as possible, and, unless I have something, or my partner(s) has something, I try to stay away from partner(s), too.

Away from everyone and "dead ball officiating" is where I regain my focus, not by talking to other folks. :)

It's a when in Rome thing...
 

In my neck of the woods, we're told to know how many are on the star player.

Case in point: Doing a V game with big home court playoff implications. Two players foul the PG when full court pressing. I picked the non-star player as the fouler, as the star player already had 4. Is it correct? In your area, it might be. In my area: it was exactly as Rome wanted.

Same goes for TOs. We're told we should know excess TO requests before they're granted.

Good advice. This has saved me more than once.

2) Part of the scorer's job is to notify the closest official when a team has taken it's last TO, so that the official can then inform the coach of that team. Just make sure pre-game that the scorer will be doing his job properly and forget about TO's.

2) What difference does knowing how many fouls a particular player has really make? You're going to call a foul if it occurs anyway, aren't you? And if you call the foul and a player does foul out, no matter what you're going to have to "expedite the process". Nothing really changes, no matter what the circumstances, so why waste time tracking fouls?

I am starting with Sub Varsity of course and have heard many horror stories regarding poor books and clock, etc. I am trying to find ways to minimize these issues. Perhaps they really are minor in the big scheme and team fouls is sufficient. I try to make a point to see if the clock starts / stops and AP is changed. Keep the advice coming.

Kind of my point Bob, without the help of visual aids which the book shows you, which we both indicated we don't have. It is challenging to say the least to say all of this in a few words. To me, sometimes the fewer the words, the more difficiult it is for me to comprehend, even though the definition is precise. On the other hand, too many words can have the same effect, but if i had a choice, more is better. Again, not trying to get into a pissing match, just trying to make the point a little clearer for those that may not have their books or those that are truely interested in knowing.

Yaayyy!!

Sigh.....


(Sorry - I couldn't resist.)

Thanks guys. I see your point. Good tableside conversation before the game and focus on my job during the game. I suppose you really need to trust that everyone will do their job to the best of their ability.

1) In my area, we simply tell out officials to call fouls that are fouls, without worrying about who the "star" is. It ain't the NBA. Obviously, that's different than your area.

2) Of course you should know excess TO requests. The scorer is supposed to tell you when a team has taken it's last TO. That's the whole object of that particular rule.

Your biggest problem usually at this level will be getting the scorer to track the bonus' properly and inform you correctly. Time-outs and foul-outs take care of themselves. You have to trust the scorer to enter the right #s on fouls and keep the correct count of TO's. You can't do their jobs.

Keeping an eye on the clock and the arrow is always a good idea though at any level.

sounds like a good opportunity to use rule 2-10; if caught in time. Just when you think you will never have that in your game..... hum. Thanks.

I disagree with JR when he says it is pointless to know the foul status of some players, but that is another conversation for another day. But at the Sub Varsity level your games are not likely going to be in the media coverage or talked about beyond a score given on a website that is not something you really need to know that closely at that level. Also if you are in tuned to the game, you will realize you have called a certain number of fouls on a specific player anyway.

All those things you talked about do not need a conversation with the table to figure those things out. The table is supposed to inform you the timeout situation (and only when they are out of timeouts by the way). If the table does not tell you, I personally would not worry about it. Coaches should know how many timeouts they have anyway. They called them and they are always next to the table to ask if they are unsure.

The main reason I think many have a problem with this, you do not want to get dragged into a conversation that you really do not want to have (which a coach for example) at that time. If a coach is really mad and you are by the table, it is harder to avoid a T as opposed to if you are standing near mid-court and they have to come out to get you. There are always exceptions, but I would not want to make a habit for me having to go to the table for everything.

Peace

Actually, scoring errors can be corrected at <b>any</b> time until the end of the game. No need for 2-10 at all. Use 2-11-11.

Without intending to start a new direction for this thread because we've discussed the following to death many times, I still can't believe anyone is "told" or practices intentionally not calling a deserved foul on a "star" player based on the game situation. This is truly making a mockery of the game and calling the game in a manner that is absolutely unfair and biased. I don't care what rationalization you use, it is totally wrong.

Remember - if we call the game the same from beginning to end and call it as evenly as humanly possible, the play of the players will determine the outcome and the team that plays the best will win - and that's what's supposed to happen. If any player, and I do mean any player, commits one more foul than what's allowed, that player has fouled out and doesn't deserve to continue to play in the game - PERIOD! This is called having the quality of play by a player determine that players effectiveness in the game.

OK - now I'll tell you how I really feel about this subject. :rolleyes:

I was referring to failure to award a meritted free throw (bonus sit). did I quote the wrong rule? curses... thought i had that memorized.

Aren't you describing a multiple foul?

How many actually call "multiple" fouls? I do see double fouls, but have never witnessed a multiple called. I am certain it happens; perhaps during a drive to the basket, but have not seen anyone call it.

Most of what you are looking for is on the scoreboard, including the player and # of fouls that player has. Team fouls are always up, some clocks show timeouts left (TOL). If the team fouls are not up on the clock, I would go to the table to check for this periodically, and this only. The rest I don't care about. I don't care about timeouts until the last minute of the game and the only thing I care then is if they got a timeout left. How many they have, I don't need to know that information. Some officials will tell you this team has 3 and this team has 2. I'm like so what! The only thing I need to know is when they don't have any left, then we need to alert them. Other than that, it's wasted energy, imho....

Yes, I am. We tell our officials <b>never</b> to call <b>any</b> fouls at any time by the "star" system. We ain't the NBA. If 2 fouls are committed at the same time, they certainly can decide to assign only one foul if they want to, but they better not be using your "star" criteria to do so.

I can understand your having to do so if your assignor wants it that way. You don't really have much choice. I just don't agree with that particular assignor's philosophy.

That's fine. And again, my question to you is: how to you advise your officials which foul to call? Until you answer my question, you have missed my point.

Edit: you've only told me what system your officials don't use.

Never a multiple, as I recall.

I've called a false double twice. Once in camp with a P. Once by myself: B1 has roots and as A1 is airborne, gets a nice loud slap across the arm from B2. Then, A1 throws a body-strike onto B1.

while reading the definition in the rules, it seemed like more time would pass before the second foul, in my mind anyway. this is a good example. i will store it away for future use. thanks...

I think you are taking the comments out of context. I did not say any of this that you have suggested in any way. I think knowing this kind of thing is a knowledge thing than calling something different. The reason I want to know who the stars are because anything that happens to them is going to be the topic of conversation with the coach. I had a coach one time claim we were not calling enough fouls in favor of his "All-Americans" (his words not mine). I do not think I have read anyone else suggest we do not call the game properly either. I think most people unfairly try to turn this philosophy into a nefarious practice that is not there.

And I would like you to find a single quote in which I said any different or anyone else (please do not refer to the village idiot on this topic) for that matter.

I would also suggest that the end of the game is likely considered a more important part of the game than the very beginning. Considering that usually what happens at the end gets magnified as compared to what happens at the beginning. If I screw up a foul call on the very first play of the game that will not be remembered if the last call of the game was made correctly. For me I want to have as much information so I can stay focused. I also want my calls to be solid near the end if I have not had the best effort the rest of the game.


Now what cha got? :D

Peace

Rut - who ever said I was referring to you? ;) I'd consider it an honor to work any game with you. Oh yeah - you'd have to provide air fare and per diem.

Given the definition of false-double, you've probably called more than 2.

You did not have to be referring to me at all. I am very sorry for being presumptive. :D

Peace

What each official chooses to call if there are 2 fouls committed on the same player at approximately the same time is up to the individual official, as long as they <b>NEVER</b> go the "star" route. The correct call probably is a multiple foul, but nobody really wants to see one of those called either....unless the defenders are both putting someone into the fourth row. The criteria usually used is to try and decide if one foul occurred slightly before the other, or if the contact from one foul was more severe than the other foul. That will usually take care of the situation. After that, I don't care if they flip a coin, as long as they <b>DON'T</b> use the "star" logic.

To be quite honest, I've never heard of another association instructing their officials to call it that way. Anybody else in the same position as Juggler?

They're common as hell actually. The usual one is a foul of some kind(personal or technical) called after an initial foul(personal or technical) was called, but before the clock starts next. It could be a technical foul for a coach complaining or a player retaliating, double unsporting technicals on players, fouls during FT's, etc. The only other criteria needed is that you have fouls by both teams.

Let's do a poll. Where's M&M Guy today?

Yup. Or a foul before the ball is touched inbounds on a throwin.
Most fights should be ruled this way, as well, if they start during a live ball. Flagrant Personal followed by a Flagrant Technical on the retaliation.

Let's start another one.

Who cares?:D

Good point. You know? I haven't seen Dan around, either. Maybe they're together.

I just got out of the shower...what'd I miss?

Shut up.

Behind your ears.

I know you didn't intend to take this in a different direction but i can't let this ride. One of the village idiots weighed in with his opinion. I have another.

What you are advocating is hypocrisy if your position is it is “totally wrong.” Part of being a professional official (this is taught at the NBA level) is knowing your environment before going in. What that means is knowing what transpired the last time these two teams met. Was there an incident? If so, which players where involved? Did the team win or lose their last game? Is this a must win for one of the teams? Could a coaches job be on the line if he doesn’t win this game? Do we have any star athletes? The official that knows this info going into every game is more prepared imo to referee that game then the offficial who doesn't care.

Star athletes (S/A) are the attraction. Without star athlete, we may have 20 folks in a gym that seats 1000. With the S/A, gym is full. Remember when LeBron was in HS, they could no longer host his games in the hs gym because it simply wasn't big enough to hold all the fans, therefore, all his games was moved to an arena. Now, if your position is to call the game without any regards to the S/A that are playing in the game. Then you just made the game about you. Guaranteed, if you got 4 fouls on LeBron in the first half and you don’t care about that, guaranteed you won’t be asked to work anymore of his games or any other games involving a S/A.

If you are an official that aspires to work the best games, the best quality games. The best quality games are the games with the best or star athletes. When an assigner is challenged with putting a crew of officials on a game like this, you can believe one of the criteria is an official that doesn’t have a chip on his shoulder, that takes everything into consideration. Not only will you never be asked to work another game like this in the future, should you make the mistake of fouling LeBron (when he played HS) out in the 1st quarter or 1st half, but you would put your assigner in hot water too, because they’re going to think the assigner is an idiot putting an official like you on this type of game.

What I’m saying, is the official that takes every significant variable into consideration, and a S/A, that has the gym packed is a significant variable. This official is the one you want on the game. It is hypocrisy to say this shouldn't matter.

It *can* be good game management to know whether a team has only one type of TO left (either 30-second or full). Then, you can give the correct signal as soon as the TO is granted and don't ask the coach which type he wants when there's only one possible answer.



While some of what you say applies at all levels, the "protect the star" should not apply below the NBA level -- and that's 99.9% of what's discussed here.

FIRST meaning the first game of THIS year. And yes, I've been around for a few years. I should have been more clear in my posting! My goodness!

:p

True

If you think my message was about protecting the star athlete, then you missed my point.

Not your fault, John. As I told him, just because a post confuses Old School doesn't mean that post is in itself confusing. It's a fundamental concept of this board now.

Sorry John, it matters not to me, I just got called on my response and I had to defend my position. I agree, my goodness but if you're going to hold me to a higher standard then you have to hold everyone to the same standard.

This is one reason I don't post here very often. However, I do read the various post, because usually the post and the responses are very helpful to me. But, I don't want to hold anyone to a higher standard. Doesn't matter to me what level you are or aren't, how old you are or aren't. I just want an answer or an opinion. The constant "picking" at all the other posters just isn't called for. The nip picking on this forum drives me nuts. So, I have a choice post here or just read the post. And I choice to post rarely here, but usually read the post every weekday to see what's happening in the world of basketball officiating.

And who cares if it was my first ever game officiating or my first game of the year? It has NOTHING to do with the question, which was to find out how the rest of the official acrossed the country who read and post topics here are handling the situation that we ALL must deal with if you are working any 2-man this year. I was stunned that this post has gone onto 5 pages. I never thought it would. But, I guess on this forum I should have expected that. Oh well...to each his own!!!

I do appreciate the responses and will take them under consideration as I prepare for my 2nd game of 2-man THIS year. NOT my 2nd game ever of 2-man, but to be CLEAR, my 2nd 2-man game of the year!

:) Thanks, Splute!

Man, at least BeatleJuice makes you say his name three times before he shows up.

And, he's better lookin' than me.

That's a scary thought. . .

http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0094721/BEETLEJUICE7.jpg

You obviously haven't seen me wearing the new CCA jacket.

Was Dan there? Geez, I hope not...I can't handle anymore of those types of e-mails!!:eek: :eek: :eek:

You've get emails?! He won't return mine.

I'm too busy scrubbing behind my ears.

Wanna see??

Won't that make you go blind?

Scrubbing or watching?

<font size = 1>(Oops, I think I see both mick and Bob with their fingers on the "lock" button...)</font size>

Just because you have your head up your a**, doesn't mean you can describe that action you are doing as scrubbing behind your ears. ;)

You just spent an entire post talking about Lebron James in high school. How can you say your post isn't about protecting the star?

D@mmit! That's funny.

Now I need to tell my boss I need a new keyboard because a mysterious spray of coffee just shorted it out.

Well it appears you know Mick, if you work with him, you have likely worked with me, but I have now moved from the area for work just this past summer.

I haven't read anything about the new rules this year because I don't know if I'll be officiating due to moving constantly for work but I would, personally, tell the team away from the end of the floor I will be situating myself first horn first, then go past the other team with the first one warning. Seems logical to me, I haven't read the entire thread yet (page or so to go), but I would like to know what the actual procedure is defined to be

Thank you

Ya know Bob, you don't zing people very often, but when you do - holy cow, you really zing them good! Gonna have to remember to be on my guard with you around!!:D

And btw, you can rip on M&M all you like! You have my blessings in that endeavor...

You're just jealous because I can accomplish more than one thing at a time.

Hey, don't look at me; I didn't start this...

That's if you can catch him when he's awake.

<font size = 1>Can you feel it coming:</font size>

Shut up.

ouch...that's gonna hurt tomorrow morning...

Maybe I have the "old book", but in the NFHS 2005-2007 Official's Manual, numbers 273-275 pertain to time-out positioning. This states that both officials take positions opposite and facing the scorer's table on the nearest block. On 30-second time-outs, the officials take positions a the top of the arc. At the first horn, each official tells the huddle closest to them "first horn" and then assumes positions to resume play. Am I reading this wrong? I officiated in 1996-1998 in Oregon and the mechanic was the throw-in administering official took the ball to the throw-in spot and the other official took position mid-court opposite the table halfway between the center circle and the opposite sideline. I just want to get my mechanics straight as they've changed in the last 8 years! Thanks!

It's been changed.

Yep, that's from the "old" book. Follow the link JR posted - the Fed is essentially going back to what you remember from Oregon.

I'm going to go take another shower.

This is the book that the MHSAA (Michigan) sent to me...should I assume that we're using this mechanic? I've got JH Girls Basketball right now and the official rules meeting for us isn't until October for HS games...I guess I'll contact my assignor. :)

Thanks for the clarification M&M's!

Pre-game it with your partner, make a decision, and go with it. :)

I just got an email telling me that Honig's shipped mine out today.