Crowd (spectator) Technical
 

I was umpiring a Under 10 girls grand final, (under fiba rules), and I called a blocking foul on a girl, for stepping sideways, into the dribbler, with her legs wider then her shoulders (cylinder principal). At which point, the girls Mother, and two brothers start screaming down my throat. A few curse words were thrown in, before the big, 'bomb' in my opinion. The mother stood up, and said "She wasn't even moving, and her legs weren't that wide, get your eyes checked, you silly old sod". At this point, I blew my fox mini, and teched the bench of that team - although I hadn't given a previous warning. At my association, we are allowed to tech spectators for disputing decisions.

I'm after your opinion on the matter,

Thanks. Cleefy.

Good Situation for you. I would find the game manager and have the spectator(s) escorted for the confines. Under NCAA rules anindirect techincal foul is assesed to the team for spectator behavior.

Just have them removed from the gymn
 

Mregor

Congrats on being assigned the final game of the season/tournament, and congrats on calling was appears to be (based on your description) the proper call. In my mind, these spectators ejected themselves at either the blue or red points, in that order. If not at the blue point, definitely at the red point.

As for giving a technical foul on the team, unless there is a strong point of emphasis (perhaps with a specific directive) within your local association, I would try to stay away from such behavoir. (Years ago in my local board, there was a provincial directive of zero tolerance. Not all areas abided by it, but my local board did. It's amazing what happens when unsportmanship is taken out of the game!) So just have game management escort the culprits out of the gym and do not start the game until they are 100% out of the gym.

Did she really say "you silly old sod"? Only in a place using FEEBLE rules, I'm sure. http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...ages/smile.gif

In this kind of a tournament, make the coach responsible for his/her spectators. Tell the coach to get the persons to leave and that if it doesn't happen quickly, the game is forfeit. Believe me, that really gets some action.

I don't know FIBA rules, but I'm never in favor of giving Ts on fan behavior. Get 'em out. I think that says a lot more and doesn't penalize those who aren't at fault.

I don't agree, even at younger ages, that the coach has FULL responsibility for fans or even parents' actions. I can see that in some cases, but the coach can't babysit 50 people sitting in the stands and still be an effective coach. I think that's unreasonable.

I'm of the opinion that at the HS level and below that if a spectator has to be removed from the facility that there should be some penalty for the team.

Something must be done to put a stop to the egregious unsporting behavior. There is no better way to punish the parents than to have their poor behavior hurt their kids' team.

2-8-1
 

The officials shall penalize unsporting conduct by any player, coach, substitute, team attendant, or follower.

NOTE: The home management or game committee is responsible for spectator behavior, insofar as it can be reasonably be expected to control the spectators.
The officials may call fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game. Discretion must be used in calling such fouls, however, lest a team be unjustly penalized. When team supporters become unruly or interfere with the orderly progress of the game, the officials shall stop the game until host management resolves the situation and the game can proceed in an orderly manner. In the absence of a designated school representative, the home coach shall serve as the host management.

The younger the players, the more I would take the red line to heart. Just have 'em thrown out. If game management refuses to back you up, then do what you have to do.

I would not call a T on a spectator for the main reason that it is hard to always tell who is responsible for such an action. Not all fans of the same team sit in the same area. And I do not think it is right to penalize players and coaches for people they do not control. Not to say that I would never do so, but it is definitely pretty close to "never" in my philosophy of this rule.

Just get rid of the perpetrators and move on. You might penalize the wrong team for fans that do not represent them.

Peace

This is something I would agree with 100%.

I agree with the Juggler, they earned their trip to the minivan. I'd give the coach a chance to give them a code red before the T comes out, but that's here and with my association. I can also state that, for the most part, I've not worked a game where the management wouldn't have been on the spot before I had a chance; even AAU.
Hold that. Did you say 10 year old girls? Holy Sh!t! That mom needs to be publicly humliated in the stockade. Short that, I'd stop the game just to have her removed. Walk to the table, call both coaches over, and tell her kid's coach that the game will be forfeit if mom isn't outside of your visual and audio range within 60 seconds. Do it loud enough for everyone to hear. She needs to be humiliated for this performance.

The FED has had the same guidelines in the rules for many years, telling us how to deal with situations like this. Imo, they're valid and should be followed.

-Simply have game management remove the parent. Stop the game until that is done. If nobody from game management is present, it's the responsibility of the coach of the home team.
- Never call a technical foul on any team unless there are completely extreme circumstances. One doofus parent yapping ain't extreme circumstances. And unlike Junior, I really don't think that it's necessary to penalize a team of 10-year old girls just because one of their parents is a jerk. In AAU/rec games, you'd be T-ing up teams almost every game.The daughter of that parent has already been punished enough; she's been completely embarrassed by her mother's actions.
- If you do have extreme game problems that can't be brought under control, <b>suspend</b> the game rather than forfeit it. Let the proper governing body deal with the fallout. Write a complete game report and fuggedaboutit.

JMO. The FED guidelines are in the case book under 2.8.1.

Even if they threw a chair? :D

I will not call a foul merely for the legs being wider than the shoulders.
If that is her normal defensive stance, the stance is legal on my floor.

Please explain the FIBA 'cylinder principle'.

Thanks, but I don't think so, JR.
What about the defender ... and not a screener.
Ain't no one can play proper defense with feet no wider than the shoulders.
May as well tie their shoes together. :)

Isn't guarding what they are talking about?

Who knows ?
Everything is upside-down down under. :)

Yeah, I read it wrong.

Silly monkey.

Nevermind.

You're right, Mick. I read it wrong. The call depends on where the contact occurs. Assuming LGP, generally on the torso--->charge. Outside the torso--->block.

Yabut, what if the contact is on the turso? I'm so confused.

It's a bluck.

JustAnotherRef:

NFHS R2-S8-A1 does not apply to this game. The rule that does apply is FIBA R6-A38.3.2, which states: "A technical foul by a coach, assistant coach, subsitute or team follower is a foul for disrespectfully communicating or touching the officials, the commissioner, the table officials or opponents, or infraction of a procedural or adminstrative nature."

MTD, Sr.

I would say most under 10 girls games, no matter what rules you play by, sometimes you have to improvise a bit. I merely quoted this rule as what I perceive to be a sound principle.

But, Rut, by your logic you could "pretty close to never" have anyone removed from gym because "it is hard to always tell who is responsible for such an action." :D

In short, your willingness to have people removed because of their poor behavior, but unwillingness to charge a technical foul doesn't make sense.

If you are certain enough about whom to attribute the comment or actions to have them removed, then you are also certain enough to assess a penalty against a team.

Yeah, I guess it only makes sense to Jeff.....and the people who wrote NFHS rule 2-8-1 and NFHS case book play 2.8.1......and the officials who follow the direction of the rules and case book. Silly monkeys.

Sample verbiage out of 2.8.1....
-<i>"Thus, while officials do have the authority to penalize a team whose spectators interfere with the proper conduct of the game, this must be used with <b>extreme caution and discretion</b>. While the authority is there, the official must <b>rarely</b> use it, because experience has shown that calling hasty technical fouls on the crowd rarely solves the problem....."</i>
- <i>This may require the removal of a team follower(s). This can be done <b>without</b> charging the supporters' team with a technical foul. The <b>advised procedure</b> is for the official to to notify game management as to which follower(s) must be removed from the site."</i>
- <i>If the official has positive knowledge as to which supporter(s) threw the items , the official <b>should</b> instruct game management to have the supporter(s) <b>removed</b> from the site. As in the previous case, this can be done <b>without</b> charging the supporter(s) team with a technical foul,"</i>

It kinda seems that Jeff's philosophy is pretty close to the NFHS philosophy. Of course, Jeff probably only has access to the rule and case books printed by the FED. Maybe you could send him a copy of the <i><b>The Junior Rules(tm)</b></i>.:)

Jeff said <i>"Just get rid of the perpetrators and move on."</i> Good advice imo.

Agreed. And I'd add that the "rules" are often different for "rec league" games -- and that's what I'[d assuma an <10 game equates to. Here, sometimes (often?) the coaches are responsible for the behavior of teh fans and a T is appropriate *under the rules of that league*. That's what Cleefy seemed to imply (or at least what I inferred from his post).

Yeah, I hate being call a "sod." :rolleyes:

I think the fact that you're asking makes it evident that you wished you had handled it differently.

Had it been me and I thought their behavior crossed the line, I would have asked game management to remove them from the facility.

But penalize the team because fans yelled at me? No. Never.

I realize we disagree on interps from time to time but...have you lost your mind? You're going to penalize a team of 10 year olds because one of their team moms called you a sod? GMAFB!

From Jurassic Referee: "Sample verbiage out of 2.8.1: Thus, while officials do have the authority to penalize a team whose spectators interfere with the proper conduct of the game, this must be used with extreme caution and discretion. While the authority is there, the official must rarely use it, because experience has shown that calling hasty technical fouls on the crowd rarely solves the problem. This may require the removal of a team follower(s). This can be done without charging the supporters' team with a technical foul. The advised procedure is for the official to to notify game management as to which follower(s) must be removed from the site. If the official has positive knowledge as to which supporter(s) threw the items , the official should instruct game management to have the supporter(s) removed from the site. As in the previous case, this can be done without charging the supporter(s) team with a technical foul."

Everytime I read this citation, I think about the remote possibility that a fan of Team A might "pretend" to be a fan of Team B and do something unsportsmanlike to get some fouls shots for his "real" team and get an indirect technical foul on the "real" opposing coach. I know that it's a remote possibility, but it has guided me throughout my 26 years of officiating to occassionally ask to have a spectator removed, or at least spoken to by the site supervisor, but to never call a technical foul on the spectator.

I've removed many a fan over the years, Billy. Never dreamed of calling a "T" and probably never will.

Imo you penalize the person who deserves it, not an innocent party.

That's not what the rules say!

Sure it does: "Penalize unsporting conduct by any... follower."

"...Discretion must be used in calling such fouls, however, lest a team be unjustly penalized...."

Cleefy, after reading all of the replies here. I find it amazing that no one has mentioned this. You called a block and you stood around to listen to all this from a fan. What might help you in the future is to put the ball back in play, and continue on with the game. That way, you moved down the court away from the fan and hopefully you can't hear what the fan is saying. You made a correct block call, put the ball back in play. Fans can yap, yap, yap, all they want, it's not going to change anything.

By moving the game along, they will eventually get over it because something else will happen and they are on to something else. The key here to me is to let the fan dig their own grave by establishing a pattern. If, after several trips up and down the court fan A is still having issues. This person is going to be a problem for your game and you will need to deal with them, as in any problem person/player in your game.

What has already been stated here is the best, and to add to it. When you start talking about giving a T to the team. If the fan is directly behind the bench, then you can go to the coach and warn them that this fan is about to get you a T. Then the coach can address it. However, if the fan is across the court on other side, the coach or team may have no knowledge of what's going on or plead stupid. Then you will need to deal with the fan. One more thing, that was bad advice to go try to embarrass a mother or fan like what the one post suggested. Never engage in this type of response. One reason is parents maybe new to this (10th grade girls) and they will need to learn just like at one point in time we as officials where new to this. Give that great personally of yours a chance to remedy the problem before you start ejecting people out the gym. That's enough, follow by a stop sign hand signal, works great for me. If the mom runs thru that stop sign, you have now proof that you tried to deal with it and now she can deal with her issues outside this gym because she's not watching the rest of this game.

That is my point....

Oh, my !
Not even close.

That's fine. I can respect that. ;)

Furthermore, since the NFHS has clearly stated that they do not want us to impose our personal philosophies upon the games, I don't employ mine when working HS games and issue technical fouls to spectators, except for under the most extreme of circumstances.

However, I am certainly entitled to have my own opinion and to express it when someone posts a question which inquires about it.

I do think that sporting behavior would be better, if the NFHS adopted my personal philosophy on this, and if I were asked to draft rules for a youth rec league, I would certainly make it so that if any parent from a team had to be removed that the team was also charged with a team technical foul.
I feel that would provide an effective deterrent to poor behavior from the parents.

As always that's JMO and you are free to disagree.

Have a nice day. :)

You mean to say that you think all the parents would be aware of such a rule change and would adjust their behavior accordingly? There is one guy around here, that back when his kids were playing, every time the whistle would blow, would stand up and take a few steps down the stairs toward the court, like he was going to do....... one might only guess what. I have heard that this guy talks about "being ejected from every gym in the country," and seems to see this as something of which to be proud. When you take a guy like this, and he is not the only one, I don't believe the fear of a technical foul will clean up his act.

Just because you can come up with one exceptional example where NevadaRef's philosophy probably won't work doesn't mean that he isn't generally correct.

This whole debate is about exceptional examples. The only fans we need to have this debate about (call a t or just kick 'em out) must all be exceptional examples of bad behavior.

Article 4.2 (FIBA) says that "team followers" are people allowed to sit on the team's bench, so spectators are not team followers. Moreover, article 38.2.5 says:

Those areas are not under the official's jurisdiction. There is no "crowd technical" in FIBA, unless local rules make provision for it.

Ciao

AS a new official this is one of the situations I fear the most. The Middle School games I have been to always have a Deputy Sherriff at therm. If I was 100% certain who the culprit was I would point them out to him, if not, I would ask him to watch a certain area the ruckus was coming from and address that area if necessary escorting them from the gymn. I would let him know that the next time technical fouls would be given and to give that tidbit of info to the spectators involved.
Last year at my daughters Middle School game one of her team mates was aassessed with a foul. This palyer became so upset the coach had to call a timeout. In the meantime the player's father came out and stood at center court yelling at the official. Nothing was done. After the game the father walked all the way over to the official again and starting chewing him out again. I think the best policy is to nip it in the bud!!

Just my $.02