Palming, POE
 

After reading the POE regarding "palming", I am having a hard time imagining how the hand can be "facing downward" and be called palming. I understand their point regarding the ball coming to rest at anypoint in the dribble. But I am having a hard time picturing how that can happen with the palm facing downward. I realize you have the potential when the dribbler changes directions and pulls the ball across or perhaps a behind the back move that may cause the ball to rest in the hand extendedly. In these cases the palm is usually on the side of the ball. Can someone state a situation where the palm is facing downward and you would call palming? I do not consider a high dribble to be such a case. Perhaps I am just picking on the wording? thanks

Splute,
Picture yourself dribbling a child's small basketball.
Now, picture yourself with very large hands and a regulation basketball.
Does that help? :)

The move where the dribbler grabs the ball (palms it) at the top of his dribble, holds it and hesitates before continuing the dribble.

aaahhhh, that never crossed my mind. thanks guys!

Splute, what word did you use in the title of this thread? Have you ever seen a good player be able to hold the ball with one hand, even when the hand is on top of the ball, facing downward? That, to me, is the essence of palming. There are many players using that skill to re-direct a dribble, where some of us need to put our hand under the ball to accomplish the same thing. It's harder to watch for, especially if you are used to just watching where the hands is on the ball, rather than what is being done with the ball.

I'm guessing this is more of an issue in the higher levels, and not with grade school or most JV ball.

Or, what mick said. :)

I appreciate the detail explanation M&M. My simple mind had never considered someone being able to do that while dribbling. I see it during dunks, but never have noticed in dribbles. I think you nailed it when you state we have watched for placement of hands on the ball. I knew I had to be missing something for them to write a POE.

Do they define "come to rest" anywhere? Technically, I suspect the ball always comes to rest on any dribble, but I didn't take physics, so I could be wrong here.

Do we count seconds, or is this "I know it when I see it"?

You are not wrong for the exact reason that you're thinking.

Yes, you'll know it when you see it. Just like a crackback block for you football guys.

I guess the *up-down* may stop, but I doubt that the lateral movement "always" stops.

The velocity will often reach zero at the apex of a dribble, but it is instantaneous and we ignore it as long as the ball is being accelerated.

There's our physics man! :)

To Mick's point...vertical velocity will *always* be zero at the dribble apex instantaneously. It is rarely zero in the horizontal dimension.

Just sayin'

What about when a dribbler does a 360 degree spin move and continues his/her dribble? Would this be something we should call as palming?

<b>Only</b> if the ball comes to <b>rest</b> during the spin move. Palming was, is, and always will be a straight judgment call. If the ball comes to rest, that ends the dribble. If the player dribbles again, that's an illegal second dribble. The official on the spot has to make that decision.

This is a tricky one. This can not be a global problem because most HS players can't palm the ball facing down, or at least not the ones that are handling the ball. Also, hestation dribbling is not illegal. We where told that if no advantage has been gained, don't interrupt the game. When looking for palming, look for the obvisous. When it occurs, there will be no doubt, it is very clear.

If the hand stays in contact with the ball the entire time as the player spins 360 degrees, I can't see how the ball would NOT come to rest in the hand.

It is, as Jurassic said, purely judgment; but in that particular move, I don't know how the player could avoid palming the ball.

That's not what the POE in the 2007-08 rule book says.

<b><u>POE 4B-PALMING:</u></b> <i>"A definite advantage to the offensive player is gained on the hesitation 'move' to beat a defender(towards the basket or just to go by them). In many of these instances, the ball is 'coming to rest' in the dribbler's hand. A violation </b>MUST</b> be called by the official, as there is no way to defend against this move."</i>

That's a pretty general and patronizing statement. To the authors, I offer. "Duh !!!"

Palming
 

Of course I didn't read the minds of the person who made this a POE. However, I cannot see of think of many realistic circumstances when the ball can be palmed when the palm is facing downward. Big hands, small ball (sounds a bit personal), sure, it may be possible. But, how many Connie Hawkins are there out there?! And, he couldn't dribble to save his life (or his career). I think we see many more instances where the "old" palming is allowed (hand under the ball, especially on hesitations and crossovers).

Well, there is that very good NCAA clip of a point guard dribbling right-handed down the right side of the key to the free throw line and stops as he rolls his hand over the top of the ball [with the ball actually reversing direction at it's apex] and dribbles backward. Doesn't take a large hand to do that, only a quick hand.

Where is the disadvangate in that? If we called every single little insignificant thing to the game that is in the book, we really wouldn't have much of a game. Palm down palming is questionable. I would like to see some examples. I would prefer time be spent on more destructive items to the game. This is ticky-tack. Makes you wonder about the committee meeting all together. Who's on this board? What did they have for lunch? etc....

Those are rhetorical questions I presume. :)

I think it should be pointed out that the hesitation dribble is not illegal, but the ball coming to rest (palm up or down) along with a hesitation move is illegal, if I am understanding this correctly. If this is not right, please let me know.

I like the NCAA interp where they recommend that if the dribbler is not gaining an advangate, palming does not need to be called.

This new POE could cause some problems. Among the least, consistentcy problems with the officials and it gives losing coaches something else to complain about.

Is that like gaining a Watergate? :o

Where my I find that particular NCAA interpretation?:confused:

You would have to go to a DI camp.:)

Um, no. If the NCAA rulesmakers issue something, they issue it to everybody. For instance, in last year's NCAA rule book, they issued a POE on Palming also. In that POE, it doesn't mention anything even remotely resembling what you stated.

What D1 camp was this said at?

All of the one's that I attended.

:D <i></i>

That's exactly what I thought.

Or just watch Ray Allen. He does it regularly and is vry good at it.