A1 shoots a jumper and the shot goes in. A2 is in position to rebound a possible miss. B2 runs thru A2 after the shot was enroute to the basket. I was lead and called a push. Here is what we did: I reported the foul....count the basket. A's ball oob nearest the spot of the foul. Was this correct. I took a few to review this in the books and cant find the section. NF Please.

Larks

You did it correctly and if Team A had been in the bonus, A2 would have gone to the line instead.

slight addition
 

Mark T.,
Don't we want to count the basket before we do anything else when reporting a foul?
mick

Mick I'm with you first count the basket then report foul and then administer the penalty. I'll admit it's nit picky but the devil is in the details.

NF Reference?
 

Can anyone point me to the section in the NF rules that covers this sitch?

Try 6-7 see the exceptions and then 7-4-6

i am not saying what you did is incorrect, i just would like to add a bit.
from what you stated it seems that b2 excessively ran thru a2 and i agree that a foul should be called if it is excessive.

now to modify the situation, if b2 were to dislodge a2(not excessivley or violently) it would be good to the outcome of the play. if the basket were good, could you have passed on the foul? i would tend to say yes, it would be good to pass and say to yourself i need to be more alert of b2 on rebounding situations. just a thought.

Thats an interesting point. I wont say B2 was violent or perhaps even excessive...I saw a clear advantage gained however. I can see your point to swallow the fox 40 here but my thought is why give a free shot to the opposing team just because the shot went in. What if the shot missed and B2 got the board due to his advantage gained? I think I blew the whistle before the ball went in. It was right in front of me. I would appreciate more feedback here though....how many of you eat the whistle in this case?

Larks

Re: slight addition
 

You are correct. I had a senior citizen moment.

Whether or not the attempt was good has no bearing on whether B2 committed a foul or not. A2 had a legal position on the court when he was pushed out of the position by B2 and this action happened during a field goal try. Basketball does not have an advantage clause as in soccer. B2 committed a foul and the fact that the try was successful has no bearing on the play.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Larks

Quote:

Thats an interesting point. I wont say B2 was violent or perhaps even excessive...I saw a clear advantage gained however. I can see your point to swallow the fox 40 here but my thought is why give a free shot to the opposing team just because the shot went in. What if the shot missed and B2 got the board due to his advantage gained? I think I blew the whistle before the ball went in. It was right in front of me. I would appreciate more feedback here though....how many of you eat the whistle in this case? Larks

if you consider him(b2) giving a cheap shot to a2 by all means call the foul(preventative officiating). but if it is just a player going through the usual motion of a dislodge you could easily pass on the dislodge.
if the shot is missed and b2 gets the rebound an obvious advantage has been gained and a foul should be call.
when a play like this occurs try to glance at the ball and see what is going on. if there is a shot being taken try to see what bearing the dislodge has on the play. fouls like these(on made basket) are not very obvious.

for myself, when i call a dislodge on a made basket i know that my concentration level is not where it should be. i need to have more court awareness when i make a call like this.

Was there an advantage gained by this? Advantage, Disadvantage. Referee the defense, think like the offence.

Well, my thought was the advantage is that B2 pushed A2 out of the way so he could have a better position for a potential rebound. I understand having court awareness but what about area of coverage. If I'm lead and the ball is right in front of the trail, I'm concentrating on the lane / post play. Right?

Crew makes a compelling point though...I was probably the only person in the gym aware of this "foul" other than A2.

I play rec ball mostly forward or center (Insert Fat jokes Here JR). There is nothing more I hate than being in position and getting pushed out from behind right in front of the ref, especially getting a no-call.

I guess the real question is how is this called at the varsity and college level. If I'm gonna move up, are calls like this going to hurt me in the long run?

Larks

Oh no,not me,ol'buddy.I heard that,as a player,you were 260# of dynamite.Couse I also heard that Mr. Dynamite had a 1/2 inch wick,too!:D:

Hey, can I lob the softballs or what? That 1/2 wick is lighning fast though...much like my spin move to the hole followed by a lay in (Fat guys cant dunk).

we can call a lot of fouls when the shot goes up. I agree with crew. Sometimes the push happens early on a long shot, then it is too late to make the call when the pusher gets the rebound and i have to eat the whistle. I also try to judge the resistance of the player being pushed. Is he giving ground easily or is he being displaced.

slow to no whistles work
 

on crew's thought process.....

This works very well as long as the contact is not too excessive and if A2 does not immediately come back trying to retaliate. If both players just play on and the basket goes in, you can pass on the call and the next time that you are within earshot of B1 tell him that he needs to clean up his rebounding play.

If the ball does not go in, and the rebound goes to the other side of the floor (therefore B1 and A2 would not have any significant part of the rebounding play), you can still use the same logic. However, if the rebounding action on the miss comes to the side of the floor where B1 gained an advantage, CALL THE FOUL.....even if it is a late whistle from when the contact occurred.

More than once I have had the coach saying that "nobody is even near B1, how can that be a foul?" My reply is "Coach, how do you think it came to be that nobody was even near him?" ;) He then understands that the early push gave his player the freedom for the uncontested rebound.

Many here will disagree with this philosophy. However, if you try to use it, you may find that your flow will be much better for the entire game and that you are able to keep some good post players in the game a lot longer.

I agree with BigWhistles posting
 

I will add that if you view B1's act as an opportunity to "get a cheap shot" then CALL THE FOUL as a preventative measure. Additionally, if the opportunity presents itself, soon after the foul, you may want to VERY briefly explain to B1 what you saw.

I recently did a game where the athletic defender leaped and clearly (cleanly) blocked the shot out of bounds. However, in the process of the block he inadvertently kicked the shooter in the chest. (Yes, the defender was up that high). As the strongside trail I had a great look at it and made the call.

That same defender had occupied the lane spot nearest to where I was about to administer the FTs. He repectfullly asked what was his foul. It was easy to compliment him on his effort and explain that he had inadvertently kicked the opponent in the chest. He accepted it and we played on. Even if he had asked in a challenging way I would have given the same response in the same demeanor. As I view it, it is all part of game management.

Re: I agree with BigWhistles posting
 

It was a good thing that the player was able to jump that high. If he did not have quite the hops, he might have kicked the shooter below the belt. Then you would not have had a foul, but a violation for "kicked ball". :D

Re: NF Reference?
 

Larks, the situation is really nothing special. I make the same call in the same situation all the time. It is simply a push and happens after the shot(since the ball was already in flight.) The only problem is that the scorer(and coaches) need to quickly understand what you called. I always go quickly to a spot near enough the table that all can hear and say "I have a push AFTER the shot on white number 44. The basket was good." Most veteran officials I know will almost always pass on making the push call if the ball is in flight--probably just to eliminate confusion. MAYBE this is the best thing to do but the problem I have with it is that when I'm in lead position, I am not watching the the shooter out front and I may not know that the ball is in flight. But even if it is in flight, if the foul needs calling, I call it. As far as I am concerned you handled it perfectly.

There is another situation I see pretty regularly that is real tricky. It usually happens on 3 point shots. As trail, I am watching and signalling the 3 pointer. The ball is in flight and then the defender moves in to block out the shooter(why he thinks he needs to block out a 3 point shooter I don't know.) Of course, if the shooter is still airborne when he is pushed out, you have a foul on the shot. But, if he has already returned to the floor after the release of the ball and then the push occurs, you simply have a push AFTER the shot. It is Billy H to sell to a coach but it is the correct call to make. I have never seen another official make this call other than myself. The other officials will either pass on it if it is well after the ball is released or if it is close, they will call the foul on the shot. It sells easily but it is wrong. I explained how I handle it but use your own judgement on this one but "handle with care."

Re: Re: NF Reference?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ralph Stubenthal
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Larks
Can anyone point me to the section in the NF rules that covers this sitch?

Larks, the situation is really nothing special. I make the same call in the same situation all the time. It is simply a push and happens after the shot(since the ball was already in flight.) The only problem is that the scorer(and coaches) need to quickly understand what you called. I always go quickly to a spot near enough the table that all can hear and say "I have a push AFTER the shot on white number 44. The basket was good." Most veteran officials I know will almost always pass on making the push call if the ball is in flight--probably just to eliminate confusion. MAYBE this is the best thing to do but the problem I have with it is that when I'm in lead position, I am not watching the the shooter out front and I may not know that the ball is in flight. But even if it is in flight, if the foul needs calling, I call it. As far as I am concerned you handled it perfectly.

================
That was kind of my thought....if i'm lead and the ball is near the trail, I'm not watching or sometimes not aware of a shot attempt. Court awareness is tough....especially in 2 man. I can see eating the whistle in some cases. Like I said earlier...its frustrating as a post player to get 2 hands in your back moving you out of the way when you have position. Comments about keeping good post players in the game make sense to me but a good post player knows to keep his hands off the back of the guy in front of him. (Ok, maybe some of them know).

I wasnt strong side on this call. I have been working that into my game but I wonder if I even see the push if I was since it happened right in front of me (weak side).

Good feedback everyone. Thank you. I can see both schools of thought on this one. Hopefully I can apply the right balance of both.

If anyone cares, my call went without fan fare from the fans or coach. Maybe A2 and I werent the only ones who saw it!

Larks



[Edited by Larks on Jan 21st, 2002 at 01:13 PM]

Re: Re: Re: NF Reference?
 

Biggie and Willie gave you some pretty good guidelines to follow.The one thing that should help you in this type of situation is your own experience in banging with the big guys underneath when you play.You know yourself from experience when you've moved someone enough to get an advantage,and also when the contact doesn't mean diddley squat to the play.Call it the way you want it called when you play,and you shouldn't have too many problems.

I agree with the responses that have been made up to this point. Personally, I try to avoid the call if it is not a factor in the play. Enough contact, though, I will call it either way.
My question is this. For those of you who say that when you are the lead, and the ball is out on top by the trail, you are not always certain if a shot is being attempted. How do you decide then, if the foul happened before or after the shot was in the air? I think you have to have enough court awareness to know when a shot goes up, even when you are the lead. Your partner cannot help you, as he would be watching the shooter, and not know when the foul occured.

True, but he'll probably hear the whistle. In this case I think the trail can safely go off of that.

Re: Re: NF Reference?
 

Interestingly, I had THREE of these calls just tonight... a defender backing out the shooter (pushing) on a box-out (3-pt shooter) AFTER she returned to the floor. All were missed shots, but the definitely pushing fouls; and called as such.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

You know yourself from experience when you've moved someone enough to get an advantage,and also when the contact doesn't mean diddley squat to the play.

I agree with Coach Mora, uh, I mean JR :D

Chuck

Larks
I believe that in one of your posts you essentially asked about the wisdom of calling this foul, especially if you want to move up. Some have told you here that it is clearly a foul, others have said to pass on it until you see if the shot goes. I can tell you that I can't recall having seen your foul called in a single high level game I have watched for several years. The singular eception is the excessively violent push, which must always be called (and usually they are separating a couple of players when they call it!).

This type of foul was called at times in the 70s when I was in HS, but rarely then, and never nowadays (in my experience). But I have seen several occasions in the past couple of weeks where an early push resulted in a whistle as soon as the ball came off the rim. I think you can judge for yourself how to call this one.

HC,

Thanks for additional feedback. I think the key here is court awareness. Knowing that if the shot is enroute and give the play a chance to develop. I'm getting there.

Now, what do you think about a sitch where it's clear that 2 hands in the back are used to displace rather than bodying up or running into the rebounder for better position. In that case, I think I have to call the foul regardless of the violence involved. Your comment about higher level may make sense because those guys are probably smart and talented enough to know better.

Bottom line for me....better court awareness....2 hands or violent collision into offensive rebounder = foul, even on made basket.

Additional Comments?

Larks

Even with the two hands, I would advise looking at the amount of contact. It's not just the method, but the intent/result. If it is a two-handed nudge, you probably still got nuthin' (in my book - going on sale soon!). If you have a two handed shove that looks like more than an attempt to gain advantage, you gotta call it. This is beyond a mere rebounding foul.

But you're right, this is something I am certain you will get the proper feel for with time, especially since you know enough to ask. And as you watch games on TV (or in person) watch the game from a refs prespective. I now try to do the same, only as a coach from a coach's perspective, watch and think about the adjustments I might make during a game that I am not coaching, understand what the teams are trying to accomplish on offense and defense, watch for individual responses to particular game situations, etc.