sharing a story

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I hope I don't sound thin-skinned, but this kind of post is what set me off once before with Eli (eroe). I'm sure that the intent is not to "big time" anybody, but it sounds like you're saying, "Come on guys, stop being such babies. It's time to grow up and start thinking like college officials". It just rubs me wrong.

Who cares if tony is talking about high school or college? TH's point, and I think he's right, is that if the ACC commissioner told his officials to T Coach K every time he loudly dropped an F-bomb, he would stop doing it. That's all.

We all understand that for whatever reason, it's accepted for the big time guys to curse, even at the officials. We see it all the time and it's let go. We understand that. The point is merely that if they made it clear that it wouldn't be tolerated, it would go away -- or the coaches would be sitting in the locker rooms. Can anybody disagree with that? And more than that, wouldn't that be a good thing?

Chuck

As I have stated previously, what the coach said in the orginal posting is a flagrant foul no matter what the level of play. I am a structural design engineer has has been on or around construction site for most of my life. I can swear with the best of them. If you hair is straight I will can curl it; if you are bald I can make it grow; if you have hair I can make it fall out; you can see where I am going with this sentence. When I am on a construction site I can hold my best with any construction worker (by the way for all of you constructions workers, my father was a member of the United Brotherhood of Carpenters for over fifty years when he passed away). In fact my friends will tell you that my language is quaitly colorful. The point is that a sporting event (I know that the NBA/WNBA is entertainment, but that is another story), is no place for inappropriate language, especially at the college level and above, because the players and coaches are all college educated and society norms expect that the people involved will conduct themselves as ladies and gentlemen. I am completely baffled why an official would not eject a coach for what was said in the original posting. This is the type of conduct that makes it harder for the officials that come afterword to do their jobs. Sometimes as officials we are our own worst enemies, and this is a good case in point.

[BBarnaky]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I hope I don't sound thin-skinned, but this kind of post is what set me off once before with Eli (eroe). I'm sure that the intent is not to "big time" anybody, but it sounds like you're saying, "Come on guys, stop being such babies. It's time to grow up and start thinking like college officials". It just rubs me wrong.

Who cares if tony is talking about high school or college? TH's point, and I think he's right, is that if the ACC commissioner told his officials to T Coach K every time he loudly dropped an F-bomb, he would stop doing it. That's all.

We all understand that for whatever reason, it's accepted for the big time guys to curse, even at the officials. We see it all the time and it's let go. We understand that. The point is merely that if they made it clear that it wouldn't be tolerated, it would go away -- or the coaches would be sitting in the locker rooms. Can anybody disagree with that? And more than that, wouldn't that be a good thing?

Chuck

Not Big Timing anybody ChuckElias. I have worked highschool and college for the past several years. I have cut my highschool schedule down due to my limited availability and the good fortune of getting a nice college schedule the past 2 season. That could all change, we know how officiating is.
I was merely stating the point that we don't allow this behavior for sure at the high school level. It is tolerated a bit more at the college level. And yes, I agree, if the NCAA and Commissioners told us to penalize this conduct more severely than we would. Thats what we do, follow directions and assess penalties and violations.

Just to add to the big time comment, I also happen to be very involved in my local high school association helping others and training. I feel compelled to give back to the game due to so many other people that came before me that has helped myself and others reach/attain a small amount of success. I also help out in summer beginner officiating camps and help teach officials the basics of high school officiating, mechanics, and how to objectively watch themselves on tape.

PLEASE DON'T ACCUSE ME OF THIS!!! I was just stating the point that it is tolerated a bit more at the NCAA level. BOTTOM LINE.

With all the time I put into this avocation of mine, as you could all see from my post I was a bit aggravated at ChuckElias' comments about me.

Have a good day. And, I will enjoy my day off from the bball court and watch the NFL playoffs.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by BBarnaky

Not Big Timing anybody ChuckElias. I was merely stating the point that we don't allow this behavior for sure at the high school level. It is tolerated a bit more at the college level.

PLEASE DON'T ACCUSE ME OF THIS!!!

as you could all see from my post I was a bit aggravated at ChuckElias' comments about me.

Well, I guess I'm not the only thin-skinned one. I guess I can feel a little better about that. If you look at the very beginning of my previous post, Barnaby, you'll see that I said that I didn't really think you were trying to "big time" us here. But that is, for better or for worse, the impression that I get from some of the posts made by Eli, and sometimes by tony and you. I know it's not an intentional, snobby thing. But sometimes it sounds that way. That's exactly why I said I didn't want to seem thin-skinned.

I didn't accuse you of anything. I was merely trying to point out that, while I understood the point you were making, that point should be irrelevant. It shouldn't matter whether we're discussing high school, college, big time college, or pro. That kind of language should not be tolerated at all, especially when directed at an opponent or official.

So, having said all that, I hope you too will sit back and enjoy the NFL today, have a Diet Coke and a smile. I'm blissfully serene today after staying up till 11:30 to see my Patriots prevail in OT (with a little help from the Referee!). WOO-HOO!!

Chuck

[BBarnaky]

Boy did you get some help in that Patriots game!! I still think that was a fumble. I bet they will make some type of clarification next year on that particular play in their rule books and interpretations.

ChuckElias, I have been on the other end of that with my Buccanneers a few years ago against the Rams in the NFC Championship game. That play actually changed the rule and the interpretation for the previous seasons. I feel bad for Oakland, but I'm hoping the Bucs make a run after Gruden. I think he is a great coach.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by BBarnaky
Boy did you get some help in that Patriots game!! I still think that was a fumble. I bet they will make some type of clarification next year on that particular play in their rule books and interpretations.

ChuckElias, I have been on the other end of that with my Buccanneers a few years ago against the Rams in the NFC Championship game. That play actually changed the rule and the interpretation for the previous seasons. I feel bad for Oakland, but I'm hoping the Bucs make a run after Gruden. I think he is a great coach.

The refs did not help at all. They just did not stop New England from doing anything. If they disserved to win, they should have played defense in overtime.

Peace

[ChuckElias]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

The refs did not help at all. They just did not stop New England from doing anything. If they disserved to win, they should have played defense in overtime.

Rut, I don't mean the refs, in general. I mean the Referee, the guy who reviews the replays. He looked at the "fumble" and ruled that there was conclusive evidence to show that it was an incomplete pass. That helped the Patriots immensely. If he had ruled that the play would stand (as I personally think it should have), the game was over. The Raiders just had to take a knee 3 times, b/c the Pats were out of time-outs. Instead, the Pats retained possession and drove for the tying field goal. So the Referee helped the Patriots big time, whether he was right or wrong, he kept the game going when it would otherwise have been over.

Chuck

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Since when does an official need his supervisor's approval or instructions to eject a coach for calling him or one of his partner a f****** a*****.

I cannot believe that any official (with the exception of Crew) would allow a coach to stay in the game.

[Brad]

Mark,

NFHS rule 10-4-1a & c address this issue -- disresptectfully addressing an official and using profane or inappropriate language.

At no point in the rule book does it say that this is an automatic flagrant technical foul on the offender. The only automatic flagrant fouls for bench personnel are fighting or leaving the confines of the bench during a fight.

Personally, I'd address the situation exactly how Tony did -- give the technical and see what happens afterwards. If the problem corrects itself (which it did) you go back to playing the game. If not, you can always come back and issue the second technical and eject the coach.

[RookieDude]

Talking about a Coach cursing out your partner to you...

I was sitting around with some officials at a local bar a few years back and overheard the following conversation:

Referee: "So, Coach X really did call me that?"

Umpire: "Yeah, he called you a Son of a B****."

Referee: "And you didn't T him up?"

Umpire: "Would you have?"

Referee: after some thought..."probably not"

About that time, the local sports came on the late night news on the bar T.V.
Sure enough, there was this guy, I'll call the Umpire, standing by Coach X and you could read his lips while he was pointing..."that Son of a B****"
Some of the officials there laughed, some of the officials there were shocked.

My point is this. This Umpire guy was just starting out as a Varsity offcial. The Referee guy had been doing Varsity for about 3 years. This Umpire was good from the get go. He has since moved up into the top ranks of his association as has the Referee guy. In fact the Umpire guy did a State Championship game last year! He is also moving up the ranks as a college official. He is about 30 years old. My guess is he will be around for awhile.

My observation is this. crew's attitude goes hand in hand with some of these top officials. In fact, crew did something this up and coming H.S. official DID NOT do! He T'd the coach up! My guess is he even feels bad about it.

Politics are alive and well. What's a Rookie to do?

[DrakeM]

I cannot believe that any official (with the exception of Crew) would allow a coach to stay in the game.

And Drake.
I agree with what Brad said.
If the Technical remedies the situation, 'nuff said.

[SOWB_Ref]

I have no problem with throwing a simple (for lack of a better term) T for a comment like that regardless of it being directed at my partner or myself. Nor would I fault anyone for considering it flagrant.

The question I find me asking myself is this, "What kind of comment could a coach or player for that matter say that would be so 'extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct'(quoting 4-19-4) that would I have no choice but to consider it flagrant?"

I think it would come down to the situation, context, and my prior relationship to the individual. All of it subjective.

[Bart Tyson]

4-19-4, (Vulgar, Abusive)I read this more like a potential fight. Two players squaring off. One player trys to start a fight with a few choice words. Probably more out of control of himself.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
4-19-4, (Vulgar, Abusive)I read this more like a potential fight. Two players squaring off. One player trys to start a fight with a few choice words. Probably more out of control of himself.

If a player or bench personnel (including the head coach) calling an official a f****** a***** is not vulgar or abusive conduct, then the sign of the apocolypse is upon use. Officals are being subjected to increasing amounts of abusive conduct over the last ten years or so, and this is a perfect textbook example of a flagrant technical foul. And when the conduct comes from a head coach (high school or college) it sets an example for his players. If the coach is allowed to stay in the game it sends a message to his players that it is acceptable to address an official in that manner. If an official allows a coach or player to remain in the game after this type of conduct I would suggest that the offcial get a backbone transplant. When an official lets a coach or player get away with this type of misconduct he makes it more difficult for the officials who come after him to handle this coach. There really cannot be any reason for not ejecting a coach who calls an official a f****** a******. Absolutely none.

[Bart Tyson]

I've never had a coach say this,( knock on wood) so i guess i can't say what i would do until it happens. I didn't say the rule was limited to a potential fight. I was only commenting on the rule and what is the most probable situation you might encounter concerning this rule and that is my guess on why they wrote the rule the way they did write it. Would it matter to you if he said it quietly to you when you are standing next to him or if he yells it so others can hear?