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-   -   Your worst game ever? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/37836-your-worst-game-ever.html)

rockyroad Wed Aug 29, 2007 01:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Gee Rocky, thanks for the help there buddy....errr....hey wait a minute... :mad:
No problemo Dan. Glad I could "help"!! :D

And I am proud to say that I am neither subtle nor mature.

I'd like to say that I was glad OS is back, but I'm not a liar...it is kind of fun to watch Snaq yank on his chain though...

Old School Wed Aug 29, 2007 01:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Quit talking like this was during an NCAA game, 'cause if it was, I guarantee you'd have been retired for not giving him a T. Three person crew, there's no excuse for someone not seeing it.
You can't call what you don't see! Nobody going to get retired for failing to call a T or any violation for that matter, that they are not sure of. Are you suggesting to GUESS?????

Quote:
And whose fault is that? Oddly, I haven't seen this after my Ts (with one exception who quickly learned that a 2nd T would indeed be called). Here's a hint, wreck coaches can be taught, too. Hand out a deserved 2nd T a couple of times, and they get the picture pretty quickly.
NCAA College coaches are very powerful and influencial people. Most of them have been doing their jobs longer than we have been officiating. You talk all big and bad but as hard as it is to get on a college schedule. If there's some real NCAA officials out here that's willing to speak the truth, they will tell you. That's not a place you want to go in your games. You look for other ways (game management) of handling the situation.

Jurassic Referee Wed Aug 29, 2007 01:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad
And I am proud to say that I am neither subtle nor mature.
I was shocked.....shocked, I tell ya......to find out that apparently Chuck isn't subtle or mature either. I always thought that he was extremely mature....for a short guy.

Jurassic Referee Wed Aug 29, 2007 01:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
NCAA College coaches are very powerful and influencial people. Most of them have been doing their jobs longer than we have been officiating. You talk all big and bad but as hard as it is to get on a college schedule. If there's some real NCAA officials out here that's willing to speak the truth, they will tell you. That's not a place you want to go in your games. You look for other ways (game management) of handling the situation.
Iow, the officials were completely wrong to make this call.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvRO2GE4x4M

You know as much about what's going on in college games as you do about high school games. You only know what you've <b>seen</b> from the stands or on tv. It ain't your rec leagues, Toto.

Adam Wed Aug 29, 2007 02:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
You can't call what you don't see! Nobody going to get retired for failing to call a T or any violation for that matter, that they are not sure of. Are you suggesting to GUESS?????
You didn't read me correctly. You will get retired, fired, and canned for not making this call. Either you saw it and didn’t call it, or you didn't see it. Either way, there's no excuse at the NCAA level. Not with a three-whistle crew.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
NCAA College coaches are very powerful and influencial people. Most of them have been doing their jobs longer than we have been officiating.
Let's put it this way: The ones who are that powerful and influential didn’t get that way by throwing chairs across the floor. I guarantee if they throw a chair across, they're expecting the T. Worst thing you can do then is not call it.

Old School Wed Aug 29, 2007 02:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
You didn't read me correctly. You will get retired, fired, and canned for not making this call. Either you saw it and didn’t call it, or you didn't see it. Either way, there's no excuse at the NCAA level. Not with a three-whistle crew.
You didn't hear me correctly. I asked my partner (2-person), he didn't see it. I got nothing. It wasn't an NCAA game, it was a wreck league game that was determined. I suppose I could have poured a little salt on that, but it wasn't going to change the outcome. I do agree with JR that this will cause problems for me later on, as everyone thinks I'm not going to make the big call. Guess what, I got a surprise for them. I am the better because i acknowledge and understand that this is coming. It is a problem that I now have to deal with alone. Acknowledging the problem is half the solution.

Quote:
Let's put it this way: The ones who are that powerful and influential didn’t get that way by throwing chairs across the floor. I guarantee if they throw a chair across, they're expecting the T. Worst thing you can do then is not call it.
Did we forget about Bobbie Knight? and he's still coaching.

Lcubed48 Wed Aug 29, 2007 03:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie
Probably last year. Early season tournament assignment for a private school thing. Allegedly varsity. This game amounted to the 7-8th place game, as both teams had lost their first two games. Immediately, it was clear even this game was going to be a blowout. The bad team was poorly coached and lived by the motto "if you can't beat 'um, beat 'um up." We (2 man) struggled to keep control from the middle of the first quarter, but were doing OK. The biggest problem was that we were trying to keep the clock running and throw a bone to the losing team by calling fouls against them and only the felonies committed by them. By the 4th quarter, it was apparent that strategy was flawed. The winning team started getting a little miffed about how they were getting hammered and no call was made.

One example of the contact was a good wrestling throw down move that the losing team was using -- calling it a block out. On a rebound, they'd grab the other player, and throw him down. Unbelievably I let one of these go, then started calling them. The coach was irate from the middle of the 3rd quarter on (down by at least 35 at that point), and in the 4th, my partner threw out one of the premier wrestlers on the losing team after he threw an elbow. The coach started asking me if we gave him a warning first, and I told him, "no, we don't give warnings for flagrant fouls." Then, he started loudly complaining. I had passed on a T before then, but late in the game, it was starting to get out of hand. After I warned him twice, he continued his loud protests, and I dumped him. My first ejection ever. I do know the coach was shocked beyond belief and might have had some job issues because of it. This was supposedly a Christian school!

While I stand by the ejection, I performed poorly. But to some extent, it was worth it due to the things I've learned:

1. Don't automatically go into blowout mode (i.e. ignoring fouls committed by the team getting pummeled), especially early in the game. You might be judicious in your selection of what to call, but don't EVER ignore things like takedowns or other completely physical moves that have no place in any basketball game. I can't believe I swallowed my whistle on that one play.

2. Don't ignore the T even if the team's coach you need to hit is behind by a bunch. Had I hit the coach earlier, ejection may not have come about.

3. Warn once, then enforce. Most coaches don't want to be ejected, and won't chance a second T.
I am in complete agreement with you. We are often our own worst critics. We know when we have made a mistake or were less than perfect. But, we learn from it and move on.

Mark Padgett Wed Aug 29, 2007 03:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
Did we forget about Bobbie Knight? and he's still coaching.
And he's still spelling his name "Bobby" Knight. Boy, you sure know a lot about basketball. :rolleyes:

Adam Wed Aug 29, 2007 05:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
You didn't hear me correctly. I asked my partner (2-person), he didn't see it. I got nothing.
Oh, I read you perfectly. You had a chair flying across the floor. You didn't see who threw it, but you knew who threw it. I'm willing to bet a quick count of the chairs lined up on the bench would have told you which bench it came from, in case you really didn’t know. Call the T on the head coach. As I said, if it wasn't him, he'll learn to control his bench better in the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
It wasn't an NCAA game,
Three words for this, and the third word is "Sherlock."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
it was a wreck league game that was determined.
You're the one who brought very "powerful" and "influential" NCAA coaches, NCAA fines, etc., into the discussion not me. In fact, I recall telling you to quit pretending this was done in an NCAA game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
I suppose I could have poured a little salt on that, but it wasn't going to change the outcome.
It's funny, I know refs who are reluctant to call Ts if they're afraid it might affect the outcome. Then there are refs who are reluctant to call one when it won't affect the outcome. Either way, it's an excuse, and it's not why you didn't call it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
I do agree with JR that this will cause problems for me later on, as everyone thinks I'm not going to make the big call. Guess what, I got a surprise for them. I am the better because i acknowledge and understand that this is coming. It is a problem that I now have to deal with alone. Acknowledging the problem is half the solution.
So all this rambling and you agree with us?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
Did we forget about Bobbie Knight? and he's still coaching.
Not at all. Obviously, he's the first guy to come into mind when discussing restless chairs. Also, obviously, he got a technical foul called when he threw the chair. So using him as an example is really counter-productive to your whole point here.

Mark Padgett Wed Aug 29, 2007 05:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Three words for this, and the third word is "Sherlock.
My dog's name is Sherlock. When I take him out for a walk and he doesn't "do his business", guess what I say to him.

I know - TMI. :p

rainmaker Thu Aug 30, 2007 03:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
I like to think of myself as subtly mature.
The maturity is extremely subtle!!:D

Old School Thu Aug 30, 2007 06:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Oh, I read you perfectly. You had a chair flying across the floor. You didn't see who threw it, but you knew who threw it.
If I didn't see who threw it, how can I actually say I knew who threw it. I have no problem calling a technical on something I see. I get a little bit hestitant when i'm not sure. I'm only paid to enforce what I see. The bigger arguement here is one referee trying to tell another referee he did something wrong when it's not his call to make. Why can't you accept the fact that there is more than one way to handle a conflict. We don't always have to enforce a T or spank the kid to get them to do the right thing. It was my game, my decision, and I stand behind it. You may not agree with me, but guess what, it's not your decision to make.

If you want to fire me because I did't enforce a T when I admitted I wasn't sure who to gice the T too. Then that's on you. Oh, and I can live with that. My bet is if you continue to do business like this, you won't have very many competent officials working for you.

Quote:
It's funny, I know refs who are reluctant to call Ts if they're afraid it might affect the outcome. Then there are refs who are reluctant to call one when it won't affect the outcome.
There's also referees who won't call a T when they are not sure. I think that calling a T should be used to better the game. If it's not going to better the game than the ref should have the disgression on whether to enforce or not. IOW's, if the game already determined, why add further insult to your game. I know you don't think before you act, but further thought into calling this T meant delaying the game longer, thus prolonging the ending and increasing the time for something even stupider to happen.

I made a decision for the betterment of the game, not for the betterment of the official. It's not about me. I will get another game to work and a chance to redeem myself. So far, you guys have made this about the official. I'm the only one who is standing up for the game, who considers the game more important. It's called game management. Get over yourself and you might learn something.

Jurassic Referee Thu Aug 30, 2007 06:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School

1) If it's not going to better the game than the ref should have the disgression on whether to enforce or not. IOW's, if the game already determined, why add further insult to your game. I know you don't think before you act, but further thought into calling this T meant delaying the game longer, thus prolonging the ending and increasing the time for something even stupider to happen.

2) It's called game management.
1) Iow, if the game is already determined, let the coaches throw chairs and the players swear at you. Anything goes just so you can get the damn game over. I got news for you, JMO. The rec leagues that you work obviously bear no relation at all with real basketball. That might be the absolute dumbest advice ever posted in the history of this forum. You <b>NEVER</b> ignore unsporting conduct just so get a game over. Ostriches don't make good sports officials. Neither do people without the testicular fortitude to take care of bidness.

2) You wouldn't recognize game management if it jumped up and kicked you in the head. You don't have a clue what the term means. Ignoring unsporting conduct just to get a game over is about as far from game management as you can get.

Old School Thu Aug 30, 2007 07:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
1) Iow, if the game is already determined, let the coaches throw chairs and the players swear at you.
That's not what I said, a little spin control here.

Quote:
Anything goes just so you can get the damn game over. I got news for you, JMO. The rec leagues that you work obviously bear no relation at all with real basketball.
Got nothing to do with me. Whether it's real bb or fake bb, or whatever you want to call it. Coaches should not throw chairs, whether the officials calls a T on it or not, that is wrong and unprofessional behavior in whatever league you want to call it.

Quote:
That might be the absolute dumbest advice ever posted in the history of this forum.
It was never mentioned as advice, it is and will forever remain my opinion. You may not agree with it, that is your right.

Quote:
You <b>NEVER</b> ignore unsporting conduct just so get a game over.
At some point during this discussion you need to take the time to read what has been written. I did not IGNORE anything. I did not see a violation therefore I got no call to make. I am not happy about the chair being on the court, but you know what, I am not happy about the price of gas either.

Quote:
2) You wouldn't recognize game management if it jumped up and kicked you in the head. You don't have a clue what the term means. Ignoring unsporting conduct just to get a game over is about as far from game management as you can get.
And you have no clue what it takes to be a good official. Quote from NFHS Quarterly Report: People may think that simply knowing the games rules constitues competent officiating. There is so much more.....


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