6th grade boys last night. Losing coach (by 20+ points) comes over and tells me I did a good job. I even called a T (my first) on one of his players for unsportsmanlike with less than 2 minutes to go.

Question, how much information do you report to the bench when you call a T on a player? Do you just say it's for unsportsmanlike, or do you say it was for argueing and deliberately throwing the ball away from the official?

Personally, I never explain a T. Usually, that's b/c it's obvious why I called it. If it's not obvious, and the coach sincerely asks "What'd he do/say?!?" I simply reply, "Ask him, Coach". That way I don't get into a debate with the coach, and the kid has to 'fess up to what he said to me.

Just my personal approach

Chuck

I never tell be bookkeeper the reason, but I will tell a coach if he asks.

You don't have to clarify, but coaches almost always as "What'd he say?" If it's not repeatable, tell the coach to ask his player, otherwise you might just tell him.

The main thing on reporting technicals is to let the book know whether or not it counts towards the team total, against the player, indirect on head coach, etc.

hey bard, how many years have you been officiating? :)(and not given out a T)

If you gave a technical, it is usually ovbious why it was given. If a player recieved it and a coach asks why, tell him, but quietly, and when play is stopped.

I wouldn't explain the T to the table. all the info they need to know is that there was a technical foul, the offending team's color, if it was a player, the player's number, and then you shoot. don't creat controversy by explaining it, if asked by a coach, then explain it.

I feel it is just as when we call a foul, we say the color, number, foul, status of the ball, but we don't verbalize that the foul was a holding foul, we just do the mechanic.

I like this approach as well. It is more likely to make the kid accountable for his actions.

Jeez! Lucky bard! I'm in my first season and have 17 already.

So the kid says I dunno coach, i was just standing there and she is now accountable? If I can't tell why you Td my player because something happened out of view/earshot, I will be quite upset if you refuse to give the reason. I will hold the kid accountable and probably ask them what they got Td for a well, even if I know. I make them fess up. But it's harder to do that and know that thye know what they did wrong without my knowing what your call really was.

If it was profanity, I am not asking you to give me an exact quote, just let me know the player used profanity and get on with it. But I find it arrogant to refuse to communicate with me if I ask you in a non-threatening manner for clarification as to what you called - T or otherwise. I'll give you respect, but I deserve a little bit, too.

Usually, I just report "unsportsmanlike conduct", but if it was for profanity, I add that.

If the coach asks what the player said, I'll tell him. My favorite is a Davism whenever the player said "the F word."

Howler Monkey: What did he say?
Me: It was that word that starts with "F" and ends with "U-C-K" and it's not "FIRETRUCK".

If a coach ask, tell him. Keep responses to three words or less. These respones should be practiced so you are prepared. example; player talking smack to opponent, coach ask why, i say "taunting".

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Quote:

So the kid says I dunno coach, i was just standing there

Then he is lying. I don't give T's for "I never touched him". My T's are for vulgarity or personal comments toward me or another player. That's why I feel comfortable telling the coach to ask the kid; b/c the kid said something that clearly deserved a T. If he says he didn't, that's not my fault.

Quote:

I find it arrogant to refuse to communicate with me if I ask you in a non-threatening manner for clarification as to what you called

It's not arrogance, at least on my part, Coach. It's just my preference. A Technical foul is usually part of a heated situation, and I prefer not to get myself deeper into a heated situation if possible. So if I have the info you want, and your player has the same info, I prefer that you get it from him.

Chuck

Chuck
Don't know the levels you ref or your experience level, so I don't mean to insult you in any way. But my experience has been that the higher level refs and the more experienced refs have mastered communicating with coaches when legitimate questions are asked. As a coach, I have a legitimate right to ask you something and get a straight answer. If I take a heated situation and make it worse, you can have your second T. But I do take great issue with your preference that I get my information about Your call from My player, who may or may not know what you called and who may or may not think they did something wrong. You called it, I'm simply asking what was called.

In our MS competitive league, the commissioner is a college ref and he will only entertain complaints about refs for four reasons. Of course I only remember three - tardiness, lack of hustle, <i>poor communication</i>. If I had you in a game in that league and you Td up one of my players and wouldn't tell me why, I'd be on the phone Monday morning. I've done it once before for ref that wouldn't move and appeared completely disengaged from the game (and all the players noticed), as well as for a team of refs where I positively loved the way they were ahead of the game (and I lost in overtime with the good refs, won a close one with the atrocious one - still called the league in both cases!).

If your preference is to avoid communicating with coaches in a heated situation, I believe that is a skill that you should work on because it is an essential skill not only in basketball but in life. Yes, there is potential conflict - deal with it.

I tried that once. The coach had no idea what I was talking about.

I have to disagree with your premise. I too refuse to
answer the "wa-did-he-say???!!!" from coaches with
any details. Sure, most coaches might agree that the T was
valid, but more than once I got back "Is that it!!!? This
ain't a tea party!!" when I attempted to practice the fine
art of communicating in high stress environments. So I now
limit my communications to "he made an inapropriate and
unsportsman like remark". And I only say that if asked.

17 in one season? I haven't given out that many in 6 years! Oh, wait, is this another of your "I'm on a roll today" postings:D

Hawks Coach: Whacked a kid (boys JV) Tuesday for language...not the "F" word. When I reported the T, the coach asked what it was for and I replied "language". The coach replied "English or Spanish"? I replied "both". In retrospect, I should have whacked the coach for being a smart a@@, but he probably thought he was being funny so I let it pass. Guess we were both guilty.

I promise I won't be insulted. I honestly appreciate most of the posts you make here. Bring it on :)

Quote:

But my experience has been that the higher level refs and the more experienced refs have mastered communicating with coaches when legitimate questions are asked.

I don't know if I'd use the word "mastered", but for the most part, I'd say that you are correct. As I've indicated in a previous thread, communicating with coaches is not my strongest asset as an official. I work on it from season to season, and I think I've gotten a lot better.

Quote:

But I do take great issue with your preference that I get my information about Your call from My player, who may or may not know what you called

Coach, the whole premise of my comments is that when I call a T, the player definitely, every single time, without question, absolutely knows what he did to earn it. I don't give T's for ticky-tack whining (unless it's been going on all night despite warnings). So if I bang your player, HE KNOWS the answer to your question. So ask him. What's the big deal?

Quote:

If I had you in a game in that league and you Td up one of my players and wouldn't tell me why, I'd be on the phone Monday morning.

That would certainly be your prerogative. But I think the call would seem petty.

Coach: I'd like to report that no-good, SOB Chuck Elias!

Assignor: (Deep sigh) What'd he do this time?

Coach: He wouldn't tell me what swear word my kid said to him!

Assignor: That heartless bast@rd!!

Ok, ok. That's a joke, obviously. But is this really a reason for trying to bounce a ref from your league?

Quote:

If your preference is to avoid communicating with coaches in a heated situation, I believe that is a skill that you should work on because it is an essential skill not only in basketball but in life. Yes, there is potential conflict - deal with it.

Coach, my preference is to avoid a situation that could unnecessarily escalate. If the information you need can be gained without further intervention from me, I think that's the better situation. You can't ask your player why that was a backcourt violation, b/c he doesn't know the rule. You can't ask your assistant coach why that wasn't traveling, b/c he might not recognize a legal jump stop. But you sure can ask your player what he said to earn a T, b/c as I said at the beginning of the post, HE KNOWS.

Ok, now I'd like to ask you a question, and again, I honestly appreciate your contributions to the forum. So please bear in mind that this is a legitimate question, not trying to be a wise-guy.

Why does it matter what he said? The fact is that he should not be addressing the official at all, unless he's the floor captain. If the players are trained to simply keep their mouths shut at all times, then there won't ever be a problem.

It's like what I was taught about police officers. You always do what the officer says. If he screwed up, then you work out his penalty later, but you never give the officer lip while he's addressing you. Never. It only makes things worse. Same thing with an official. You can never make things better by telling the ref what you thought of a call. Never. So if the kid gets tagged, he brought it on himself. What does it matter what he said? It's his own dumb fault anyway.

I'm not saying this as a license for refs to give out cheap T's. Very few of us do that, or even want to. My point is that coaches ought to be more concerned with the fact that the player is mouthing off (since this is a loss of control on the player's part) than about what was actually said.

Chuck

[Edited by ChuckElias on Jan 17th, 2002 at 12:09 PM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

I have to disagree with your premise. I too refuse to answer the "wa-did-he-say???!!!" from coaches with any details. Sure, most coaches might agree that the T was valid, but more than once I got back "Is that it!!!? This ain't a tea party!!" when I attempted to practice the fine art of communicating in high stress environments. So I now limit my communications to "he made an inapropriate and unsportsman like remark". And I only say that if asked.

We do not disagree. Read both my posts. I clearly said that you do not have to answer the "what did he say question." It is sufficient to tell me innappropriate language" and move on. But if you just say T and won't tell me the reason for the T (a push after the play was dead, profanity, dissent, etc.), I have a legitimate issue. Chuck says he can just signal the T, tell the table who it was on, and that he does not have any obligation to tell me what the reason for the T was. I strongly disagree with that premise.

Coach, I agree with you. I think the right thing to do is walk by and say 'he cursed'.

My main thing is, you are already or near the table to report the infraction, why not stop for 2 more seconds and tell the coach why (if he asks). I think answering a coaches question has more postives, than not answering a coaches question.

If a coach asks why a foul iscalled, if you have an opportunity to explain, what does it hurt?

Chuck, from what I have read, is that your main premise is that the coach is/may attack you. And maybe I am wrong, but I always give the benefit of the doubt. If I answer a question and he then attacks my explanation, you can guess how many more times I am going to go out of my way for that coach again. But he listens, says ok, what was the harm?

You're right coach, we agree.

By the way, this is 6th grade in the initial situation. Do not expect that all players at that level will know all of the reason that can cause them to get a T. Therefore, don't always expect that "they know what they did." You are an adult, trained in the rules, and you made the call. You know what they did. And don't think that coaches can see or hear all and magically divine what you called on our player in a big crowd of people congregated during a stoppage at the other end of the court.

If we are going to correct the behavior, we need to know what the call was. If you look under player technical, the list is quite long. Just let me know where you are in the list. Saying ask the player does not get me there. And if I am a jerk about it after you have done your job of keeping me informed, there are more technicals for me listed in the same section of the rule book.

OK coach, I said you're right, now drop it! :D

BTW, if it's a kiddie game I'll be more helpful if asked
what was said. My previous post only applies to "big kid"
games. ;)

Sorry Dan, my second successive post crossed with your response!!! anyway, it was more of a general point of clarification as to why this is all necessary and reasonable.

And yes, in kiddie games, usually the coaches even need more help (e.g., who was the 3 seconds on - what game were you watching coach?!)

Coach, I hope I haven't given you the impression that I think you're unreasonable. I don't think you're crazy, and I can understand that in certain situations, you need a question answered by an official. I just disagree that it's "necessary" in the situation that we've been discussing.

Chuck

So, Chuck, you are of the opinion that a 6th grader sufficiently understands all of the reasons they can get Td up, and therefore, when you issue one without anything more than the signal and the player number, he will be able to tell me why you chose to take this action? I find that hard to believe. And I know you guys think us coaches are all highly evolved geniuses, but we cannot read your mind (we can only read the mind of higher life forms like ourselves!!).

Hey Chuck, I already warned him once, if you don't
take him I will. ;)

Here's how I would do it -
 

I've decided how I will call technicals once I start next season, if I ever have to. Let's say the player was green 50, and slammed the ball down or something:

TECHNICAL FOUL, GREEN SHIRT, 5-0, 5-0 GREEN SHIRT, UNSPORSTMANLIKE CONDUCT.

That's what I would say to the table. Not to much, not to little.

fouls are reported by color, number, foul.

Green, Five Zero, Technical.

College intramural league.

'Nuff said.

Matthews,

this is one of those posts that you should read and listen to some of the responses that expierenced officials will give. you will learn a lot if you take some of the things to heart. It was already posted in a few previous posts, when you call a foul, it is color(green), number(five zero), and the nature of the foul (in this case T).

Always remember when reporting the number, make sure to do your number signals w/ your fingers away from your body. hold your hand off to the side so it is clear. You'll get it, go to games, watch reffs and listen to them! :)

[Edited by Doug on Jan 17th, 2002 at 03:55 PM]

No Coach, obviously that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that I only give player T's for telling me to F**K OFF, or something equally obvious!! That way, when I give the T, there is NO question what it's for.

Was I unclear about that? The point is not that the player knows every possible reason for the T, but that he's done something so obvious that I am forced to T him. So that when he gets to the bench and you ask him what happened, HE KNOWS!!!

I can't believe that I'm so obtuse that I can't explain this properly. My point all along has been that the player has done something that clearly, without doubt, deserves a technical foul. I don't call T's for looking at me funny or saying "But I never touched him!" When I call a player T, it's for swearing at me or an opponent or making some kind of gesture. And in those situations, the player knows why he got whacked.

Does that help make me seem less arrogant?

Chuck

Chuck, unfortantly not all refs have such black and white rules for give a T.

Chuck
I see more clearly where you are coming from and I don't think you are arrogant. And I don't doubt that you call perfectly clear Ts. I still doubt that, if you enforce all T rules (even calling only what you feel you absolutely must) all players know every way they can get whacked - but I will even grant you that assumption for this discussion.

As pointed out above, your high standards for a T may not always be true of all refs, all the time. So pretend you are me. You ask the ref what the T was for and he blows you off. You ask your player what happened and he says, "I dunno, I said something to Johney about the stupid pass he made and the ref Td me up?!" My conclusion is that you were too fast with the whistle and that's why you won't tell me what my player did - my player really did nothing. Now I have zero respect for you because you are behaving arrogant and I am sympathetic to my player. Little to my knowledge, this is really Chuck E and the call was quite clear and the player quite wrong. But I don't have a whole lot to work with here and zero independent knowledge. And lest you think players won't lie about it, one of my former players was accused by three different teams of cursing at their players, but she never did anything in her mind. Considering I have never had this accusation against any other player, this was an obvious preponerance of evidence. A single T may not be so obvious.

Now if you tell me one thing ("he cursed at me"), my player tells me another, I'll probably approach you after the game, tell you what my player said, and confirm that you were sure of what he did/said. And I would always be non-confrontational, because I really just want to know what my players are doing so that I can police it.

The reason I have made such a point of this is I don't usually (ever as far as I can remember) ask for clarification of the traveling or b/c calls refs make - those calls are usually obvious and always judgment, so I really don't care too much to know why you called what you called. If you kept making the same call and my players and I couldn't fathom why, I guess I might ask, but otherwise never. These were the kind of calls you indicated might require explanation to me. In my opinion, coaches that ask for explanations of these usually (not always) are just engaging in a more subtle dissent or looking for an opening to complain.

On the other hand, I have on numerous occasions asked why a T is assessed because it is frequently something I can't see/hear. I would say about half the Ts that I have seen issued I asked why, because from where I was it wasn't obvious and I sincerely wanted to know. Depending on the reason, I may pull the player immediately, and they may sit the rest of the game if they went far enough in my book. And no ref has ever refused to tell me the basic reason for any technical, and that has always satisfied me. I am never a jerk about it, and I haven't yet had to ask why I got Td up - never happened!

As I said Coach, this approach is my personal preference. It's worked well for me, and I've never had a coach complain that I was "blowing him off". Perhaps this approach would not work for another official. If not, then he/she shouldn't use it.

Quote:

Now if you tell me one thing ("he cursed at me"), my player tells me another, I'll probably approach you after the game, tell you what my player said, and confirm that you were sure of what he did/said. And I would always be non-confrontational, because I really just want to know what my players are doing so that I can police it.

If the kid doesn't tell you what he said, then you'll probably approach me after the game anyway (if you can find me ;)). So what difference does it really make if I say "Ask him, Coach" or if I say "He cursed, Coach". Either way, if you find the player's answer unsatisfactory, you will want to seek me out. (By the way, I don't think I would have a problem with that, as it has happened to me in the past.) So why add an extra layer of discussion to a possibly heated situation?

Bottom line, it works for me. Sorry to have stirred the pot so much with this.

Chuck

Chuck
No problem. I don't think you stirred the pot so much as stirred some good thought on my part anyway. Thanks.

If it 's obvious -no explanation- if it's not obvious such as trash talk , or comments to you etc give short loud explanation to scorer that everyone can hear( ie TECHNICAL FOUL- WHITE # 12 - TRASH TALK !!!
That approach has always worked for me.
Pistol