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Ch1town Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:35am
U call it
 
B1 fouls A1 in the act of shooting & they both fall down really hard. They both jump up pushing each other & bumping chests, as they are separated B5 & A5 start their own pushing & chest bumping match.
No punches thrown, but all acts were T worthy for sure.
When the smoke clears, how should this be handled HS rules?

Adam Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:36am
Double Ts on each. No free throws for the techs. Go to POI.

Ch1town Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:44am
So it's NOT a false double type of T as in 4-19-9? And even if it was, it's the same procedure right?
All 4 players get 1 added to their player foul count & each team has 2 added to reach the bonus?

Hartsy Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Double Ts on each. No free throws. Go to POI.
Yeah, that's how I see it. Maybe I eject all 4, too. Then it would get very interesting.

Adam Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
So it's NOT a false double type of T as in 4-19-9? And even if it was, it's the same procedure right?
All 4 players get 1 added to their player foul count & each team has 2 added to reach the bonus?
If you want, you could call it multiple double technical fouls. :) You've got a double tech on A1 and B1. Then a seperate double tech on A5 and B5. Penalize each double tech as if it were the only one.
And yes to your final question. Did you have this in your summer ball?

Ch1town Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
If you want, you could call it multiple double technical fouls. :) You've got a double tech on A1 and B1. Then a seperate double tech on A5 and B5. Penalize each double tech as if it were the only one.
And yes to your final question. Did you have this in your summer ball?
So when does a false double foul occur? I could've swore multiple fouls had something to do with 2 teammates committing personals on the same opponent at the same time?

No just a little debate we had at the gym last night. 6 officials on 2 courts with forfiets at the same time...

Adam Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:16am
B1 fouls A1 during play. You call the foul, and right after your whistle, A1 retaliates by shoving B1. You've got a personal foul on B1 and a tech on A1.

False double.

Adam Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:19am
Back to the original sitch. You could call it a false multiple double. False because they weren't all at the same time. Multiple, because you have teammates committing fouls in the same dead ball period. Double because you have opponents committin fouls during the same dead ball period. You would penalize each foul in the order it occurs.
First, your foul by B1 results in free throws by A1.
Second, your double fouls by A1 and B1 result in techs assessed to each player, and you go back to A1s free throws for POI.
Third, your double fouls on A5 and B5 result in techs assessed to each player, and you go back to A1s free throws for POI.

Vinski Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Back to the original sitch. You could call it a false multiple double. False because they weren't all at the same time. Multiple, because you have teammates committing fouls in the same dead ball period. Double because you have opponents committin fouls during the same dead ball period. You would penalize each foul in the order it occurs.
First, your foul by B1 results in free throws by A1.
Second, your double fouls by A1 and B1 result in techs assessed to each player, and you go back to A1s free throws for POI.
Third, your double fouls on A5 and B5 result in techs assessed to each player, and you go back to A1s free throws for POI.
So, in this case, because the Ts are double and thus no free throws for Ts, would the players line up for the original shooting foul?

JRutledge Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinski
So, in this case, because the Ts are double and thus no free throws for Ts, would the players line up for the original shooting foul?
Yes. You are not every going to shoot for double fouls of any kind. So you go back to the POI on double fouls.

Peace

Indianaref Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:28am
ART. 8 . . . Double fouls:

a. A double personal foul is a situation in which two opponents commit personal fouls against each other at approximately the same time.
b. A double technical foul is a situation in which two opponents commit technical fouls against each other at approximately the same time.

ART. 9 . . . A false double foul is a situation in which there are fouls by both teams, the second of which occurs before the clock is started following the first, and such that at least one of the attributes of a double foul is absent.

Scrapper1 Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinski
So, in this case, because the Ts are double and thus no free throws for Ts, would the players line up for the original shooting foul?
Yes. The POI is the free throws for the original foul. In that situation, you'd line up the players, so that's exactly what we do after the double foul.

Ch1town Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:31am
So I see, thanks Snaqwells! Tonight I work with 1 of the guys from last nights discussion, I'll let him know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinski
So, in this case, because the Ts are double and thus no free throws for Ts, would the players line up for the original shooting foul?
Yes indeed for the original shooting foul by B1

Scrapper1 Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
I could've swore multiple fouls had something to do with 2 teammates committing personals on the same opponent at the same time?
This is correct, but I changed your underlining because you never had this happen in your scenario. Yes, you had teammates commit fouls, but the fouls were not against the same player.

Ch1town Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:43am
Originally Posted by Ch1town
I could've swore multiple fouls had something to do with 2 teammates committing personals on the same opponent at the same time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
This is correct, but I changed your underlining because you never had this happen in your scenario. Yes, you had teammates commit fouls, but the fouls were not against the same player.
That's exactly what I was saying in response to the following statement:

If you want, you could call it multiple double technical fouls.

I'm just trying to figure out what type of technical foul occured in that senario...

Scrapper1 Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
I'm just trying to figure out what type of technical foul occured in that senario...
Two separate double fouls.

rainmaker Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
So when does a false double foul occur? I could've swore multiple fouls had something to do with 2 teammates committing personals on the same opponent at the same time?

No just a little debate we had at the gym last night. 6 officials on 2 courts with forfiets at the same time...
...and a simple double technical/double technical is all you could come up with? Tyros....

Scrapper1 Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Tyros....
:confused: <font></font>

Mark Dexter Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:29pm
Aside from the shooting foul, we have two separate double technical fouls. I suppose you could call it a false double technical, but that's probably overthinking it.

Personal foul charged to B1.

Technical fouls charged to A1, B1, A5 and B5. Players are DQ'ed if this is either their second technical foul or their fifth total foul. (Remember - if B1's personal foul was his fifth, his technical is NOT charged indirectly to the coach, as no notification has occurred.)

B will have 3 fouls added to its team total, A will have 2 added.

A1 (or substitute, if DQ'ed) will shoot 2 (or 1 if the shot was good. You did remember to see if the shot was good, right? :D ) with the lane spaces filled as normal.

bob jenkins Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Tyros....

:confused: <font></font>
It means "beginners." I thought you would have known a short word like that one.

JoeTheRef Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
B1 fouls A1 in the act of shooting & they both fall down really hard. They both jump up pushing each other & bumping chests, as they are separated B5 & A5 start their own pushing & chest bumping match.
No punches thrown, but all acts were T worthy for sure.
When the smoke clears, how should this be handled HS rules?
When does somebody's action constitute a fight? When they start swinging? If A1 pushes or chest bumps B1 across the floor, B1 comes back and does the same are we keeping one or both in the game? Okay if we don't think any of these actions was enough to say it was fighting, if B6 & B7 take a step on the floor and we see them because they think it's a fight are we penalizing them for entering the court during a fight or in this case non-fight?? I guess I had to be there, BUT... if the push or the chest bump was enough for me to think this was a fight or could become one, ESPECIALLY if I think any one of these 4 players can add more Sh*% to my game, they'll probably get the towel. Unless I can find something in the rulebook that specifically defines what "fighting" is.

Scrapper1 Tue Jul 31, 2007 01:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeTheRef
Unless I can find something in the rulebook that specifically defines what "fighting" is.
NFHS 4-18
<font>

JoeTheRef Tue Jul 31, 2007 01:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
NFHS 4-18
<font>
Thank you....

JoeTheRef Tue Jul 31, 2007 01:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
NFHS 4-18
<font>
Thanks.. I thought it was in there, I overlooked it in this 2004-05 IAABO edition.

Ch1town Tue Jul 31, 2007 01:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeTheRef
When does somebody's action constitute a fight?
When they start swinging? If A1 pushes or chest bumps B1 across the floor, B1 comes back and does the same are we keeping one or both in the game?

I guess that's up to the judgement of the official, but 4-19-4 discusses flagrants in detail

Okay if we don't think any of these actions was enough to say it was fighting, if B6 & B7 take a step on the floor and we see them because they think it's a fight are we penalizing them for entering the court during a fight or in this case non-fight??

Had they took a step on the floor 10-4-5 backs us up because it covers during a fight OR when one may break out.

I guess I had to be there, BUT... if the push or the chest bump was enough for me to think this was a fight or could become one, ESPECIALLY if I think any one of these 4 players can add more Sh*% to my game, they'll probably get the towel. Unless I can find something in the rulebook that specifically defines what "fighting" is.

4-18-1 & 2 but it looks as though each official has to make that judgement call
I hear you, my main objective was to find out what type of T this would be. So far I've heard:
a> false double per Mark
b> a simple double per rainmaker
c> false multiple double per Snaq

Adam Tue Jul 31, 2007 01:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
I hear you, my main objective was to find out what type of T this would be. So far I've heard:
a> false double per Mark
b> a simple double per rainmaker
c> false multiple double per Snaq
If you have to have a name for it, it's probably a false multiple double. However, this situation isn't named, per se.

Mark Dexter Tue Jul 31, 2007 01:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
I hear you, my main objective was to find out what type of T this would be. So far I've heard:
a> false double per Mark
b> a simple double per rainmaker
c> false multiple double per Snaq
I'm with rainmaker - just 2 double fouls.

JRutledge Tue Jul 31, 2007 01:20pm
I really do not know if there is a name for any of this. You have a shooting foul and two double fouls. It cannot be a multiple foul because none of the fouls occurred on the same player.

Peace

Ch1town Tue Jul 31, 2007 01:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
I really do not know if there is a name for any of this. You have a shooting foul and two double fouls. It cannot be a multiple foul because none of the fouls occurred on the same player.

Peace
Okay, so two double fouls then. Thanks :)

FrankHtown Tue Jul 31, 2007 03:03pm
Right about now, I'd like a double, with a twist

Splute Tue Jul 31, 2007 03:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHtown
Right about now, I'd like a double, with a twist
Is that just to recover from last weekend??

Camron Rust Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
If you want, you could call it multiple double technical fouls. :) You've got a double tech on A1 and B1. Then a seperate double tech on A5 and B5. Penalize each double tech as if it were the only one.
And yes to your final question. Did you have this in your summer ball?
You have two double fouls and two false doubles.

Double : A1 - B1
Double : A5 - B5
False Double: A1 - B5
False Double: A5 - B1

Jurassic Referee Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
You have two double fouls and two false doubles.

Double : A1 - B1
Double : A5 - B5
False Double: A1 - B5
False Double: A5 - B1
Disagree. You only have one false double foul made up of two separate double technical fouls, one following t'other.

blindmanwalking Fri Aug 03, 2007 02:18pm
You guys are giving me a headache. :p


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