Best way to approach a referee
 

How do you "handle" a referee that misapplies a rule etc., during a game, especially if it is a circumstance that will repeat during the game.

Recently, I was involved in a summer league game with 9th and 10th grade girls. The rules for the games are NFHS rules, except that the clock only stops on time outs until the last 2 minutes of each half, at which time the timing is handled as per NFHS rules. Also, the summer league rules specifically state that after a time out by the coaches or an official time out, the clock will restart as it normally would after a dead ball.

Near the end of the second half, with 3:30 remaing in the game, we were called for a foul, sending the other team to the line. Since under the summer rules the clock would continue to run during the free throws, I called timeout to perserve the time on the clock. However, after the time out ended and and the teams lined up for the free throws, the referee told the clock operator to start the clock as soon as he gave the ball to the shooter. I complained that the clock should not start until a throw in after made free throws or until it was touched by a player or touched the court after a miss. The referee told me that the ball became live and the clock started when he handed the ball to the shooter. When I complained again, he told me I needed to "read the rules" and insisted that the clock run.

What can or should be done by a coach in that circumstance? :(

First things first. This is a summer league. There are no standard rules that govern this situation. The official could be completely right based on how the rules are written for this league. It is very hard to know that by what you are telling us now. Usually in most summer leagues I have been associated with the clock would not start just like a regular game.

If you want a one size fits all approach to approach an official, you are not going to find one. There is no one way for all officials to deal with coaches, so you will not find one way to handle this situation. All you can do is try to convince the official what you know the rule to be, but after that they can choose to listen to you or not to listen.

Peace

Answer 1: It's summer. Let it go.

Answer 2: "I'm not complaining, I just want to be sure we're doing this right. I know all the summer leagues are different. Can we look at the rules that are sitting right here (point to the scorer's table -- and yes, I'm making an assumption)?"

If you don't get the proper response, go to Answer 1. You can get the TD involved later to be sure all the timers know the correct rules for future games.

Again, without knowing the details of your summer league rules, I would have to agree with the actions of the official. Throughout the game you have a running clock, including FTs. Your exceptions state the clock will stop for T.O.s and start again as it normally would after a dead ball. You are inferring that you believe that should be a throwin (except you added the line regarding rebounds on final FT shot. If that is the case then you agree that it does not require a throwin to start the clock "normally". Therefore I agree with the official to start the clock when the ball becomes live, which is when it is given to the shooter; until you reach the 2:00 minute mark in the half.

I think you have to find out what normally means. Normally according to the summer rules (running clock), or normal according to NHFS rules?

If normal = your summer rules, and had play not been complicated by your granted TO request, the clock would have ran during the FTAs. When resuming play, the player getting control of the ball for the first FT is the logical act to re-start the clock.

If normal = NHFS, then I think the clock should remain stopped during the FTAs, and re-started as you were hoping, depending on the last shot being successful or unsuccessful.

What can be done? You can bring it up to the officials. You can write to the league after the game is over.

What should be done? If you think a rule is being mis-applied, always speak up. Officials make mistakes, though we do tremendously strive to minimize them. Ultimately, you have to accept their ruling, though.

Always speak with respect to an official. Raising your voice is unnecessary. Believing that you may enter the playing surface is a no-no. (If an official doesn't een acknowledge you, they are likely a bit over their heads, and if you absolutely need to enter the playing surface, then do so respectfully.) Whenever I speak with a coach, and before I even acknowledge the content on his/her complaint, I walk him/her back to the sideline. I will speak one-on-one with the head coach only (read: assistant coaches are not to speak). I will only acknowledge a rule application and perhaps an interpretation, not a judg(e?)ment call.

Myself, I like the academic approach to officiating. There is tonnes of material behind a rule, such as the intent, spirit, etc. Appealing to that side of me will garnish a better conversation. Every official is different, though. Ultimately, you have to accept my ruling, though.

Well stated JugglingReferee....

I am going to go against the prevailing school of thought here and state that the game official was wrong.

I have officiated far too many summer league and team camp games over the years which are played using running clocks. The rules in every one of these competitions were and are writtin in the exact same way in which the competition your team was competing. The clock should have been started should have been started per NFHS rules.

MTD, Sr.

I tend to agree with you generally Mark but it might also have been possible that a mercy rule was in effect or that the schedule was so backed up it was decided to do it this way. Then the ruling would have been "correct".

Politely tell JMO you need to please speak to his partner.

:D

Good schmoozing, coach!

Despite what some of you have said, there is no doubt that the officials handled the situation correctly. I have done literally hundreds upon hundreds of running clock rec games. If the rules state (and they usually do) that the clock stops only for timeouts, then when the timeout is over, the clock starts - period! Since this did not occur during the "stop clock" portion of the game, the officials were absolutely correct in starting the clock when the ball became live. I have never done it any other way and I have never seen it done any other way.

I have worked a few hundred running clock games myself. Usually the games I work are done with HS leagues or HS/College camps. I have never heard of a rule where the clock starts when the ball becomes live after a timeout. With that being said, I am sure this could change from one league to another. So it is very hard to say if the official was at all right without knowing the specifics of this league. I can definitely see the rules applied this way. Most of the time we just do what is typical. This aspect of the rules is usually not clearly stated.

Peace

DKMZ,

You said "you complained" about them starting the clock. Without being there, that is possibly your problem and answer. You complained! We don't know your tone or demeaner during your time of complaining but I could see some refs simply digging their heels in at that time however right or wrong they might be. If this was the umteenth time you complained, maybe they just wanted to run the clock so they could be thru with you. Again, I wasn't there but this might be your answer.

I don't believe that they did, but I sure hope that the game officials didn't do this unprofessional and unethical act.

There are more appropriate measures to take care of business.

Agreed, there are certainly more effective ways to end a coach's complaining; and some of them are even spelled out in the rule book.

It's spelled with one letter, for those who are curious.

Padgett, I said one "letter," not one "finger."

Just for all who have read this post, the rules read,

"Regulation High School Activities Association rules will be followed with the following exceptions:
• 20 minute running clock except for last 2 minutes of each half, unless one team is ahead by 15 points. If lead falls below 15 points, clock will again stop. In addition, clock will stop on all technical fouls, injuries or timeouts (including officials TO). Clock does not restart until it would in a normal dead ball situation."

No other exceptions listed in the rules apply to timing.

After the timeout ended and the teams returned to the court, play proceeded something like this:

Ref walks onto the court to administer free throws, hands the ball to the shooter and "circles" his finger at the timer to start the clock.

Coach says "I called timeout, the clock doesn't start yet!"

Ref: "Yes it does, the clock starts when I handed the ball to the shooter and the ball became live".

Coach: "No, it starts when it normally should after a dead ball"

Ref: "No, it starts now, you need to read the rules!"

At this point, what should a coach do, other than complain to the gym administrator?

All you have at this point is to talk to the tournament director or the game admin. Whoever is running the tournament. In the future, as the refs at the start of the game so no one is surprised.

It is an unfortunate event for a referee to deny you the chance to win the game fairly. I've had a similar situation happen when I was coaching: time came off the clock during a dead ball. I asked that he correct the clock and he did not.

All you can do it make it a learning moment for the official and hope that s/he doesn't do it again. It's just part of the collective knowledge of the game for everyone.

As for complaining to a higher authority, yes you can do that, but protests are rarely, if ever, heard at that level of ball.

You can turn it into a teaching moment for you players - you showing them that winning isn't everything and that you can act maturely.

Unless he had exact knowledge, he couldn't correct anything.

It's a bit extreme to claim that this was a case where the referee denied anyone the chance to win the game by starting the clock when the timeout was over. That's a stretch in most circumstances.

I worked several different summer leages and tournaments this summer and almost every one of them had subtle and not so subtle differences in their "special" rules that differed from NFHS rules. From weekend to weekend it was difficult to remember which "special" rules were in effect. Sometimes you forget one of those "special" rules or you remember how it was done the weekend before and deal with it the same way. Stuff happens.

But it is summer league and it isn't THAT important in the grand scheme of things that this one thing was missed in a girl's 9th/10th summer league game. I'm sure once the ref in question re-read the league rules after the fact, he realized he was wrong. But in no way did he deny anyone the chance to win the game by starting the clock when he did. Seems like this coach is blowing things a bit out of proportion on this.

dkmz17, I would like to know what the Association rules on this specific situation. If you find out, update us. IMO the Official maintained the intent of the running clock prior to the 2:00 minute mark; however, you do make an interesting point and that would have been a very smart move. I have read both sides from the other post and all make valid points, but it would be good to know what the association intended. Not to mention the forum gave good advice on how to approach officials.

I would hope and pray that there is not special ruling on this situation. It is a summer league and if anyone is spending this much time over what happens in a summer league, they really need to get some perspective. As I told a coach earlier this summer, "There are no banners hanging on the wall for games in June, talk to me when November starts." For God's sake many of the officials working these games would never work them during the regular season.

Peace

I am intriqued to know the rules completely, their intent and correct application regardless of the level of play. It facinates me what peoples intentions are when they say use NFHS rules "except".... then a host of problems arise. I enjoy reading about oddities in rules or their interpretations; thus why I read this forum. I would truly like to know what their intent was in this case, not that it requires a special ruling. But if was important enough for the post to be submitted so it may be important enough to them to find the correct answer. :)

Thanks. Like I didn't know that. Trust me, I made sure he knew. He flat out failed to take care of business. Hey, it happens. A million chinese won't give a $4!t tomorrow.

Rut, does the NBA summer league have the same half-heartedness about the rules? All's I'm saying is that when drawing up league specific rules, they really gotta cover all possibilities. If they don't, then mistakes happen more easily. Why slack off the rules generation (and education), especially when ultimately it's the kids that suffer - by playing with an inconsistent ruleset.

The issue is not how intrigued you are with the rules. Summer league rules are usually made up rules to keep games moving. Some want to shoot every FT and other leagues want to just keep things moving. I seriously doubt that there is a special interpreter from an association that is going to give a ruling that will be mean much of anything. As someone said, these rules change from week to week and many times have no rhyme or reason.

Peace

I would not compare the NBA summer league with a local HS or youth league in any way. For the most part summer league rules are created by a coach. Coaches might think of how they want something to go, but they do not consider all the possibilities of the rules as an official unless they have some background on a rules committee. I am not sure what you are expecting?

I have worked multiple leagues and tournaments whether it is for pay or whether it was at a camp, all rules and variation of the rules were completely different. The NF or the NCAA does not have sectioned summer league rules and games played in my state are not under a uniformed set of rules for the summer. The rules are going to change based on the objective of each league or tournament and that usually falls at the feet of the tournament director (who is often a coach).

I am really not sure what you expect to happen in cases like this?

Peace

It's a when in Rome thing, then.

In the summer leagues/tournaments/etc... that I've done, the rules are laid out quite well. Even for the summer football league I play in, a casebook was created!

Of course the NF or NCAA doesn't have a summer league rule. Why would they? They have a tough enough time managing one ruleset.

Regardless of the objective of the league, if a rule is not clear, it is open to interpretation. Thank God in 2 other leagues I'm involved with, our officiating group writes the league's rules differences and has the league approve them.

You really are making this waaaaayyyyyy too complicated. We are talking about leagues where kids play in warm-up jerseys with absolutely no numbers. And in most cases players cannot even foul out of a game. Most leagues that I have seen in my state and in other states when I have attended camp, was to allow the players an opportunity to play against competition so they can improve individually or as a team.


Once again you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. I have never been in a summer league where any association has any kind of say as to how a league or tournament is run during the summer or off season. These leagues are sponsored by the schools and any other business that wants to provide money to help run the league. I am really kind of curious why anyone would want to have such a standardize rules set for something that is basically practice. I have been involved with leagues that did not want any dunking period. That is not apart of any normal rule, but the school did not want kids damaging their equipment. I bet that the TD is not going to make a big deal out of this at all. If this was a problem, they should have got it resolved before the game was over. After that most TD are not going to ultimately care that deeply about the results. AAU has more standardization in most cases.

Peace

Educate me, please.

Isn't the statement "Clock does not restart until it would in a normal dead ball situation" a clear one? Tell me what I am missing. :o

BTW, in all other summer league games I have been involved in with this situation, the clock would not have started until it was touched after a miss or touched inbounds after a made free throw.

The guy got it wrong. Are you going to lose sleep all summer because of that one call? I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you lost the game. But you didn't lose because of that one thing. It was a summer league game. Get over it.

Please educate me. You have your answer, now what do you want us to do about it? None of us were there and none of us likely have ever worked that league. Take this up with the TD and see if they it is going to make a difference. This is a summer league. I have almost every summer had a conversation with a coach or player over a confusing rule that would only happen during summer.

Well the problem with summer leagues is they are all different. I bet I have officiated in many different summer leagues as anyone here not one was the same. I am sure this was why the confusion you had with the official and I bet the official had worked in a league that used the rules as he informed you.

10,000 BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Peace

No, we did not lose the game. But it does rub me the wrong way when an official flatly refuses to calmly discuss a rule that does not appear to be a judgment call.

Accordingly, I was/am seeking advice from informed and thoughtful referees, which most on this site appear to be, save one OS. Most responses have been a great help, thank you. :D

Just curious. Is the coaching gig just a summer thing for you or are you also a high school coach in the regular season as well?

A summer thing only.

What else was he going to discuss with you? He told you what the rule was as he saw it. Not much else to discuss. And discussing the rule was not going to likely change his mind if he felt he was right.

That does explain a lot. Do not take that as a rip, you just do not have the same perspective as many coaches do during the summer. ;)

Peace

You didn't state this was what the rules said in your original post. Many of the comments were based on this not being the case. Next time, give all the information that is meaningful and you will get straighter answers.

Uhhh, he sure did. Post #1. But that's not the point, his questions were:


How do you "handle" a referee that misapplies a rule etc., during a game, especially if it is a circumstance that will repeat during the game.

What can or should be done by a coach in that circumstance?

Not was the rule right or wrong.

Lets apply it to a real NFHS game and say an Official kicks (no pun intended)the new AP arrow rule by not switching on a defensive kick ball. As educated as I have become using this forum, I know he kicked it. So:

• How do you "handle" a referee that misapplies a rule etc., during a game, especially if it is a circumstance that will repeat during the game.
  
• What can or should be done by a coach in that circumstance?

Ans: Politely ask said referee if they would explain their interpretation of the call. Listen, don't interupt or argue, this would only get the hairs on the neck to stand upright. Once explanation is delivered (if referee decides they want to) Thank them and move on.

If you still don't understand the interpretation then go to the League Admin. for further explanation. Once again Thank them for their time.

All I can say is Arguing and complaining to an Official during a game will not get anyone anywhere. In the words of Dr Phil, "How has it worked for Ya up till now?"

Perhaps my answer is a little tongue in cheek, but this would sure be a nice change.

How do you know the official misapplied the rule? Do you know how many times a coach thinks officials misapply rules only to be completely wrong? I have had many times where coaches were not aware of recent changes or variations from one level to another (e.g. Point of Interruption and Team Control Fouls). Most of those times the coaches are not willing to listen to me or my partner, they just want to argue how they know the rule or how long they have been coaching. I have even had coaches try to argue with me about basic rules like LGP and why I called a foul when the defender is "moving."

I would say coaches need to learn how to handle themselves rather than handling an official. The minute I start to give and explanation to a coach and that coach starts to interrupt me that will not go over very well with me. I know I will give explanation to anyone that is rational or calm. The minute I start getting told what I do not know (and I take a rules test every year and the coach likely does not know the color of the rulebook) a coach will lose credibility with me. That lack of credibility means during the course of the game I will tune them out and I will not be as helpful to them when they are complaining. Most of the time coaches are complaining about judgment calls and issues with the rules are not that big of a deal. I just get turned off very quickly by some coach that obviously is not aware of the subtle of the rules.

Peace

That's not what I'm trying say, Jeff. There is a difference between a coach arguing an officials judgement call, block/charge, fouls, etc. and him arguing a rule misinterp. In the OP, the official had it wrong because either HE has the rule wrong or HE doesn't know the diff between a live and a dead ball. True, most coaches that are the arguing type are arguing the judgement calls, not rules interps.

I would never in a million years pull out a rule book, as a coach, during a game to have a rules discussion. On the same token, I sureasheck hope an official wouldn't patronize me during a game by saying "read the rules coach". I have, and have passed the test.

I also understand completely what you are saying about the coaches learning the rules and how to handle themselves. I'd be willing to bet my most of my Varsity girls would score higher on the test than our Varsity boys coach.

Those kind of coaches do make "us good one's" look bad in the perception of officials. Just like there are the JMO's out there that make you guys look bad from the perception of us coaches.

I luckily have never had it happen as of yet, but if it did happen as explained, I will burn part of my halftime to discuss with a willing crew.

I personally treat each coach as an individual. The only thing I may generalize about coaches is that they have an agenda for their team. I have never heard a coach complain about a call that went in their favor. Having said that for every officials that tells a coach, "Read the rulebook," I can give you many examples of coaches literally telling me I have no idea what I am talking about. Only for the coach or coaches to find out later that I was absolutely correct in my explanation or my supervisor to completely back me up on what I told them.

Also halftime is not the time I want to talk to any coach. If you want to talk, wait until the game is going on and even then I am not going to go out of my way to discuss a situation. The rules allow you to call a timeout to talk to an official under the right circumstances. If a coach is not aware of that rule, that is tough. It is also known that I am a very accommodating official as it relates to coaches when appropriate. I think the problem is coaches need to know that we all are not the same and we all do not have the same tolerance levels (which is not a bad thing). If you want to approach an official, raising your voice is not the way to do it and interrupting them is not a way to get on anyone's good side.

I had situation take place this summer that involved an unusual situation because it was a game during the summer. I had a coach trying to debate an issue that was not even relevant because the game was during the summer. I brought the two coaches together only to have one coach trying to debate the situation. He lost a lot of my good graces by his behavior.

Peace

I know for me, personally, whenever I do a league that has special rules (timing, backcourt defense, etc.) I'm flexible enough to know I might not have it right. I'm always willing to engage a coach to discuss the rule in question. In the end, however, I have to make a decision and stick with it. IOW, at some point the discussion needs to end (sooner rather than later), and I can't guarantee the coach is going to be able to convince. If the TD is right there, I'll ask him. If he's not, I'll make a decision on how I read the rule.

He was right. You were wrong.

I totally disagree with that. There is no way that the clock restarts when the ball is handed to the shooter for a free throw. The rules clearly state that the clock restarts "...as it normally would after a dead ball."

You were right. I was wrong.

:)

I conveniently skipped over that part of your post! LOL

Now I remember why I don't post here often... (1) It takes up too much time away from working and (2) I'm not right often enough! :)

What rules? Your summer league rules?

Who knows how the official was interpreting special timing summer league rules, or what instructions he was given by the TD?

Once the official gave you a ruling though, that's it- right or wrong. End of story. If you don't agree, take it up with whoever runs your rec league and get them to give you a ruling. If the official did screw up, let whoever is running the summer league figure out what to do about it.