FBI investigating NBA ref

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

One of the major problems with trying to compare all D1 with the NBA is the fact that there are fewer NBA officials. D1 has probably a little over a 1000 referees that work a D1 game (that number might be high, but work with for a second ). Each conference has a different supervisor for the most part and what one conference might expect is not the same in another conference.

Agree with that. And to expand on it, the officials within a conference are different also. Different personalities; different ideas on officiating; different tolerance levels, different ideas sometimes on how much contact to allow, etc. Jmo but I don't think that you're ever going to be able to regiment your training/evaluation down to where everything can be called exactly the same. I think that it's more reasonable to ask if any particular game was called fairly and evenly and kept under control while doing so. More often than not, the players/teams decide what kind of game that we're going to have, and we just follow along doing the best that we can.

Again, jmo but I think that NBA officiating is entertainment based, and that's why it's hard to compare the over-all effectiveness of their officiating staff with that of a top NCAA D1 conference. They're two different animals, with different rules and different goals. And that doesn't really make one set of officials markedly better than the other. I do wonder sometimes if the NBA expects too much from their officials.

Jmo, based on my impressions and not that much actual knowledge of the current NBA training/evaluation program......

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

D1 has probably a little over a 1000 referees that work a D1 game (that number might be high, but work with for a second ).

Your estimate is pretty good. For documented support, Referee Magazine put the figure at approximately 900 for NCAA D1 Womens officials on page 61 of its July 2007 issue.

[Jurassic Referee]

Interesting article this morning citing other NBA referees....

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...e-fixing_N.htm

They don't seem to be happy with the current NBA system, which was my impression from afar also. One interesting quote was the one about NBA guidelines directing officials to make calls all over the court.

Here's another one......
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...-reviews_N.htm.
Many observers are high school and college referees. Hmmmmmm.....

[gsf23]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Interesting article this morning citing other NBA referees....

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...e-fixing_N.htm

They don't seem to be happy with the current NBA system, which was my impression from afar also. One interesting quote was the one about NBA guidelines directing officials to make calls all over the court.

They are all just bitter.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by gsf23

They are all just bitter.

They all can't be bitter, but very few seem to have positive things to say. The idea of calling all over the court is being mis-represented. The NBA, which I agree, has a philosophy that each official has a different angle of the play and that when a foul occurs, the best angle to see the foul could be the off-official (non-prmiary area official) because the play/foul turned right into their clear-line-of-sight vision provided their in proper NBA court position. I saw a WNBA game yesterday, where the C had a great call, where the post player swung away from the lead, and the contact occured in the C's line of vision but out of their NCAA primary coverage area. You may not agree with it, but it's how 3-person officiating should be, imho. It's not perfect, but it's better than not allowing an official that would have had the best angle to see the play to not call it (or even look in that area) because it is out of their primary coverage area.

One arguement that NCAA/HS coaches have is that officials in their leagues can't make a call outside of their PCA area even though they may have saw the violation.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

but then again NBA guys have more accountabilitY.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

But this is not the reason for your previous statement. The reason NCAA officials have more bad no-calls is that they're trained that way. If you don't KNOW, don't blow. It's not because they're not held accountable, it's because they taught that their bad calls should be no-calls. When you don't blow the whistle, the game goes on. But when you blow the whistle and you're wrong, the whole game stops, everybody looks at you and you give everybody a chance to chirp at you. You might not agree with that philosophy, but that's what's taught. Of course, they want to get it right every time, but we all know that's impossible. So if you're going to make mistakes, it's better (in the NCAA's thinking) to keep the game moving.

I think you will find that with everything being taped and passed along to assignors, that way of thinking is changing. "The subs deserve the same officiating as the starters got".

Great discussion guys after my #139 post. Scrapper1, thank you for this anology. It makes a lot of sense, and I think it is being deployed in the NBA as well. But just like BTaylor said, because the NBA looks at every play/call/no-call, NBA officials are under bigger scrutiny. It is still worth reading to me because it strengthens my belief that if you are not sure, you got no call. Better to let the game continue on then to reach and be wrong. I must admit, I have been there where the game was faster than I could keep up with. Maybe that's what happened in the Spurs-Suns game, but the fact that it happened more often than not, leaves a bad impression on the NBA officials.

One note Scrapper1, that can not go unchallenged. If any NCAA crew continues to miss calls, like in the Spurs-Suns series. They will be in deep do-do. We can let one or two go by, but it needs to stay at a relatively low number. What happened in the championship NCAA Men's game, is the officials got lucky. One team was way better than the other. It gave them room for error, and there was plenty. However, if that game would have been close, it would have been a completely different story with the NCAA officials on that game.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

officials at the NBA level, once again, don't have the luxury of making their "bad calls" no calls.

Nobody has the "luxury" of making bad calls. But they happen at every level. The NCAA (in general) says, "We'd rather have you miss a marginal call than whistle a bad marginal call." That's not luxury, that's just a difference in opinion from what you say happens at the NBA level (which I've never done, obviously).

College kids are not getting paid with bonuses for winning a certain amount of games, making it to the playoffs, etc. so they don't worry about it as much I guess.

I don't mean to insult you, but you're kidding yourself if you think "big money" is not an issue in the college game. The players aren't getting it (legally, anyway); but coaches and the schools themselves are fighting for their cut of $1 billion every year.

My aggressiveness is why I favor the pro game. They want you to be aggressive, whereas I don't believe college is so much like that.

I don't think it's about being aggressive or not, personally. I think it's about getting plays right.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It seems like they want the whistle blown when bodies are hitting the floor.

Very good point. I was talking in general terms, but you're exactly right about this particular type of play. Lots of observers will say, when bodies get tangled and go down, we have to have a whistle. I don't always agree with that, but that is one play that many people would rather have a marginal whistle than a marginal no-call.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What I find amazing is that you got one clown who's never done anything except some low level rec league ball in his life, and another young official that's never done a high school varsity game in his life either afaik, yet they're both pontificating mightily about the competency of the top NCAA and NBA officials. What's wrong with this picture?

Lah me.....

I really wish we could get could do something about you account. You can't get out of your own way can you? You are like Terrel Owens, great at what you do, but.....

It is NOT illegal to share your opinion on this forum. By these two individuals pontificating as you put it, a very decent discussion has sprung. I for one, have learned more from this discussion and interaction, then reading in a damn rule book. Of course, I don't expect you to understand that but sometimes, I really wish you would stop with the personal attacks, and just pass on the discussion and let us nobody's talk and debate on this forum. Maybe it doesn't help you but others (like myself) may get some benefit from it.

Moderators, it should be illegal to continuously personally attack others on this forum. To use this forum and the data within it, to belittle and berate other officials or forum members should be outlawed. Posts #148 should not be allowed. That is abusing this forum and the data in it. This culture of attacking one another over and over again has produced a lot of unhappy officials. Just look at the number of retired NBA officials that have nothing nice to say about the enterprise that they served for years. From engaging this forum alone, which is a good representation of official associations around the country. I have nothing good to say about the senior leadership here.

Added sentence to post #148.

Have a nice day....

[Adam]

See, Jurassic, it's your fault there are unhappy ex-officials. You mean old bast@rd, you.
You hurt its feelings.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

It is NOT illegal to share your opinion on this forum.

Yup, and I gave my opinion about you, JMO.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

See, Jurassic, it's your fault there are unhappy ex-officials. You mean old bast@rd, you.
You hurt its feelings.

Gee, I hope that he never finds out that I'm responsible for global warming too.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Very good point. I was talking in general terms, but you're exactly right about this particular type of play. Lots of observers will say, when bodies get tangled and go down, we have to have a whistle. I don't always agree with that, but that is one play that many people would rather have a marginal whistle than a marginal no-call.

Had a play where two players are going for an airborne ball. They both jumped in the air to get it and they hit each other, both crashing to the ground. Neither one ended up with the ball and both sides were yelling for a foul.

Coach is in my ear and I said to him, "what did the other player do that was illegal?" Coach shut up after hearing that. Not all train wrecks are fouls, but I think greater than half are.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I know more about you than you know, Ben, believe me. It's a joke when somebody with your experience and rules knowledge starts to critique officials at the D1 and NBA levels.

At the start of the season that just ended, you admitted that you've never done a high school game in your life at any level- Frosh, JV, whatever. And I hate to break it to you, but doing a low level D3 or JC game because no one else is available in the afternoon is not the same as doing D1 ball .
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...877#post334877
Now all of a sudden you've done HS varsity and more. What is "more"? D1? NBA? Maybe you should build up a little spit in your whistle before you start expounding at how good or bad officials are at levels that you can only dream of attaining. Hell, it's probably a good idea if you learn a few basics rules first- like maybe that you can't call a "T" on a player who has rattled the board while making a legitimate attempt at a block.
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...891#post358891

If you want to "illustrate points", maybe you should actually learn those points first. Don't let that stop you, and Old School, from telling us what's wrong with D1 and NBA officials though.

Here's a little advice for you. You can learn a lot more listening than talking. Feel free to ignore that though because whatthehell does a grumpy old man know anyway.

Besides knowing my name you don't know jack about me. You don't know where I've worked or at what level.

I don't tell you what's wrong about college officials, I tell you what I PERSONALLY don't like about how we as college officials are supposed to and taught to officiate the game. I love to ref college ball but I believe in the pro mechanics. I don't hide that. People can hate on the observers. I met one of them recently and he seemed quite knowledgeable to me. I also met one of the group supervisors. Once again he seemed like an intelligent basketball referee. I do somewhat agree with Hue Hollins about getting the best of the best to be observers or group supervisors. Why don't they do it then?

Under the "more" category you can list both of which you mentioned.

As far as listening more than talking, you're right and if we met I would listen to you talk the whole time, granted I would ask some questions as well. I know if we were face to face you wouldn't attack me, you would talk to me like a human being, at least I hope you would.

Jurassic you're HS rules knowledge is uncanny. You can remember alot and I think you are a big asset to alot of the people on this forum, but we, like coaches and refs sometimes, have polar personalities and beliefs which can cause for butting heads. It doesn't help that you think I am an arrogant young kid and you are alot older than me, but if I can't have my own opinion because I am younger than how do I learn. If we can't discuss basketball plays and have an opinion, then what hopes do I have of having my own thoughts on the court and becoming a better referee?

P.S. I'm whacking the kid if the ball doesn't go in when I believe it had a chance to. I then go tell the coach that i judged that he wasn't making a legit attempt to block the ball. haha

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Had a play where two players are going for an airborne ball. They both jumped in the air to get it and they hit each other, both crashing to the ground. Neither one ended up with the ball and both sides were yelling for a foul.

Coach is in my ear and I said to him, "what did the other player do that was illegal?" Coach shut up after hearing that. Not all train wrecks are fouls, but I think greater than half are.

I think that Scrappy is talking about where there is a train wreck in a block/charge situation. Iow, the offensive player has the ball. That is a situation where a lot of evaluators like to see a call of some kind.

Two players going after a loose ball and colliding is a whole different kinda train wreck.