FBI investigating NBA ref

[Old School]

Originally Posted by boiseball

apparently it was not a must listen; just thought some fellow refs would find it interesting, I figured he must have a chip on his shoulder. I still found myself believing that there is likely some truth to it, particularly his discussion of accountability, how is it that the nba has so many phantom calls, so many calls where you just scratch your head and say, wow that must have been a guess. I do not watch a lot of basketball anymore but my opinion, and it is not something you can prove, is that phantom calls rarely occur in college basketball while they occur regularly in an nba game. And phantom calls are completely different than making calls to benefit superstars (which I hate but may not be the fault of referees if that is what the league preaches).

I found it very refreshing because you don't hear this type of talk too often. Another thing, Mike is retired, so now the NBA can't do too much to him anymore. Unfortunately, the way this business is, officials don't often speak freely for fear of being blackballed. I loved it and listen to every detail. For instance, the officiating has either just maintained or gotten worse. I totally agree and hears the reason why. Spurs vs. Suns series. Let me preference my comment with these two teams where the best men's teams in the NBA/World for this past season, and they where legit. This was a super challenge for any crew of officials. With that being said, the NBA prouds themselves as being the best in the world, in the best shape, bah, bah, bah.... The level of play was very high in this series, yet the officiating appeared to be behind the whole series. They where getting every 3rd incident. They miss calls because they couldn't keep up, not because they where bad, plus the Suns did something the NBA has never seen before. They would shoot the ball in 7 seconds, and that was a team strategy. The Spurs where good enough legitimately to challenge that strategy and they bought it right back at em, great basketball to watch. This is perhaps the best NBA series of all time because of this stragety. The ref's where lost in transition, imho. It confirms what Mike stated in that I don't feel they where ready, mentality or physically to referee at that level. They mixed crews too, but I didn't see much improvement crew to crew.

I will also say this. The crew that worked the Final Four championship game appeared to me to be too slow, just like in the Spurs series. When the officials are struggling to keep up, they start reaching for calls

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Old School

I found it very refreshing because you don't hear this type of talk too often. Another thing, Mike is retired, so now the NBA can't do too much to him anymore. Unfortunately, the way this business is, officials don't often speak freely for fear of being blackballed. I loved it and listen to every detail. For instance, the officiating has either just maintained or gotten worse. I totally agree and hears the reason why. Spurs vs. Suns series. Let me preference my comment with these two teams where the best men's teams in the NBA/World for this past season, and they where legit. This was a super challenge for any crew of officials. With that being said, the NBA prouds themselves as being the best in the world, in the best shape, bah, bah, bah.... The level of play was very high in this series, yet the officiating appeared to be behind the whole series. They where getting every 3rd incident. They miss calls because they couldn't keep up, not because they where bad, plus the Suns did something the NBA has never seen before. They would shoot the ball in 7 seconds, and that was a team strategy. The Spurs where good enough legitimately to challenge that strategy and they bought it right back at em, great basketball to watch. This is perhaps the best NBA series of all time because of this stragety. The ref's where lost in transition, imho. It confirms what Mike stated in that I don't feel they where ready, mentality or physically to referee at that level. They mixed crews too, but I didn't see much improvement crew to crew.

I will also say this. The crew that worked the Final Four championship game appeared to me to be too slow, just like in the Spurs series. When the officials are struggling to keep up, they start reaching for calls

You're kidding me. The best referees in the world can't keep up with the pace? Trust me, they can keep up. The pace was not too fast for them.


BOISEBALL:

Yeah the reason you don't see so many of those "phantom calls" in the college game is because if you don't get KILLED then you don't have a foul. College refs, imo, miss more plays on the side of no calls that should have been blown, whereas NBA refs miss more plays by blowing their whistle on plays that should have been no calls, but then again NBA guys have more accountability and know that if they don't blow the whistle they will be fired, whereas college refs don't get every play charted and i.e., if a team who is up 20+ in a game drives to the hole and gets hit, with no doubt in anyones mind, the ref can pass on it and most will say that it was a good pass because that team is up 20. In the league, you don't have that luxury. If it was an illegal hit then you owe it to the crew and the game to have a foul regardless of score and time.

Check the stats, NBA refs get more plays right than, say, refs in the Big 10. Oh wait you can't check that, the Big 10, along with the rest of Div. 1 conferences don't chart plays. Regardless, I think if they had, NBA refs would have more plays called correct even with Hank Nichols judging what is and what is not a foul.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

the reason you don't see so many of those "phantom calls" in the college game is because if you don't get KILLED then you don't have a foul.

This is completely absurd, and frankly insulting. What was the big complaint from the '07 NCAA championship game? They didn't let Oden play. Boo-hoo-hoo. They actually called fouls against him. And he didn't maim anybody. A couple of those foul calls were light contact but caused an advantage, and they got called.

College refs, imo, miss more plays on the side of no calls that should have been blown, whereas NBA refs miss more plays by blowing their whistle on plays that should have been no calls,

I'll agree with that.

but then again NBA guys have more accountability

But this is not the reason for your previous statement. The reason NCAA officials have more bad no-calls is that they're trained that way. If you don't KNOW, don't blow. It's not because they're not held accountable, it's because they taught that their bad calls should be no-calls. When you don't blow the whistle, the game goes on. But when you blow the whistle and you're wrong, the whole game stops, everybody looks at you and you give everybody a chance to chirp at you. You might not agree with that philosophy, but that's what's taught. Of course, they want to get it right every time, but we all know that's impossible. So if you're going to make mistakes, it's better (in the NCAA's thinking) to keep the game moving.

if a team who is up 20+ in a game drives to the hole and gets hit, with no doubt in anyones mind, the ref can pass on it and most will say that it was a good pass because that team is up 20.

I think you will find that with everything being taped and passed along to assignors, that way of thinking is changing. "The subs deserve the same officiating as the starters got".

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

But this is not the reason for your previous statement. The reason NCAA officials have more bad no-calls is that they're trained that way. If you don't KNOW, don't blow. It's not because they're not held accountable, it's because they taught that their bad calls should be no-calls. When you don't blow the whistle, the game goes on. But when you blow the whistle and you're wrong, the whole game stops, everybody looks at you and you give everybody a chance to chirp at you. You might not agree with that philosophy, but that's what's taught. Of course, they want to get it right every time, but we all know that's impossible. So if you're going to make mistakes, it's better (in the NCAA's thinking) to keep the game moving.

I understand what you are saying, but officials at the NBA level, once again, don't have the luxury of making their "bad calls" no calls. They also have to be certain of their plays as well. IMO, what is considered marginal contact in college is way different than what is marginal contact in the NBA. IMO, perimeter play is way too "handsy" in the college games. Guys are getting re-routed, impeded, chucked, etc. Same with cutters. How much of that do you see go uncalled in the pro game vs. college game? That's why when these guys come to summer league or pre-draft camp there are 60 to 70 fouls in a game. Difference in philosophy? Yes, but if that's not addressed in the pro game then we have a fight. College kids are not getting paid with bonuses for winning a certain amount of games, making it to the playoffs, etc. so they don't worry about it as much I guess.

Personally, I am an aggressive referee and err on the side of blowing the whistle rathering than sucking on plays. Don't get me wrong I have to be sure of what I'm calling. My aggressiveness is why I favor the pro game. They want you to be aggressive, whereas I don't believe college is so much like that.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

officials at the NBA level, once again, don't have the luxury of making their "bad calls" no calls.

Nobody has the "luxury" of making bad calls. But they happen at every level. The NCAA (in general) says, "We'd rather have you miss a marginal call than whistle a bad marginal call." That's not luxury, that's just a difference in opinion from what you say happens at the NBA level (which I've never done, obviously).

College kids are not getting paid with bonuses for winning a certain amount of games, making it to the playoffs, etc. so they don't worry about it as much I guess.

I don't mean to insult you, but you're kidding yourself if you think "big money" is not an issue in the college game. The players aren't getting it (legally, anyway); but coaches and the schools themselves are fighting for their cut of $1 billion every year.

My aggressiveness is why I favor the pro game. They want you to be aggressive, whereas I don't believe college is so much like that.

I don't think it's about being aggressive or not, personally. I think it's about getting plays right.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I don't think it's about being aggressive or not, personally. I think it's about getting plays right.

Let me explain what I mean by that comment:

I'm at a college camp and we are in transition. I am going slot to slot opposite table and the ball is coming down the court just outside the opposite lane line from me. Well the kid gets to the hole and the defender takes a swipe at it and misses and whacks the kid right in the head. Well I wait for a whistle from lead and nothing comes. Well I blow the foul after no response from L (the ball goes in which makes it look like he doesn't get hit). I was 100% that he got hit. Well the clinician comes out and says that both the L and the T didn't see anything so why was I reaching? I was reaching cause I know with no doubt in my mind the kid got hit. I went and asked the kid just after the hoop if he got hit in the head and his exact words were, "Quite hard actually".

My point to that is the clinician was telling me to leave my partners out to dry on a play that I knew was a foul. Essentially he was telling me to let him "live or die with it" which is a philosophy I use in very rare circumstances if at all. I want to do what is right for the game, my crew, and lastly myself and in that order. I believe doing anything else or any other way is doing a disservice.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Well the clinician comes out and says that both the L and the T didn't see anything so why was I reaching?

Ok, here's my clinician story from one of my very first camps.

I'm Lead. Ball swings quickly to the Center and A1 immediately drives to the basket. B1 gets a good piece of A1's arm on the shot. No whistle from the C. Clearly outside my primary, so I let it go. Here's my conversation with the observer:

Him: Whose call was that?
Me: The Center.
Him: Right. Did he have a call?
Me: No.
Him: Right. Did the kid get fouled?
Me: Yes.
Him: Right. What should you have done?
Me: Call the foul?
Him: (Patted me on the shoulder).

So it varies from clinician to clinician. Big surprise, right?

[psujaye]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Let me explain what I mean by that comment:

I'm at a college camp and we are in transition. I am going slot to slot opposite table and the ball is coming down the court just outside the opposite lane line from me. Well the kid gets to the hole and the defender takes a swipe at it and misses and whacks the kid right in the head. Well I wait for a whistle from lead and nothing comes. Well I blow the foul after no response from L (the ball goes in which makes it look like he doesn't get hit). I was 100% that he got hit. Well the clinician comes out and says that both the L and the T didn't see anything so why was I reaching? I was reaching cause I know with no doubt in my mind the kid got hit. I went and asked the kid just after the hoop if he got hit in the head and his exact words were, "Quite hard actually".

My point to that is the clinician was telling me to leave my partners out to dry on a play that I knew was a foul. Essentially he was telling me to let him "live or die with it" which is a philosophy I use in very rare circumstances if at all. I want to do what is right for the game, my crew, and lastly myself and in that order. I believe doing anything else or any other way is doing a disservice.

I've been told both things by different observers at camps; i've heard that you can make this call but the cadence of your whistle needs to allow for both the L & T to pick up the call first (i.e. it would be a delayed/late whistle on your part). I've also been told that since it is not the slot's primary and the L and/or T have clear looks, let them call/pass on it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

But this is not the reason for your previous statement. The reason NCAA officials have more bad no-calls is that they're trained that way. If you don't KNOW, don't blow. It's not because they're not held accountable, it's because they taught that their bad calls should be no-calls. When you don't blow the whistle, the game goes on. But when you blow the whistle and you're wrong, the whole game stops, everybody looks at you and you give everybody a chance to chirp at you. You might not agree with that philosophy, but that's what's taught. Of course, they want to get it right every time, but we all know that's impossible. So if you're going to make mistakes, it's better (in the NCAA's thinking) to keep the game moving.

I think you will find that this is changing. I agree that it was often taught to not blow your whistle on flops or many blocked shots to the basket. That is kind of changing at least at the camps I have recently attended. It seems like they want the whistle blown when bodies are hitting the floor. One of the major problems with trying to compare all D1 with the NBA is the fact that there are fewer NBA officials. D1 has probably a little over a 1000 referees that work a D1 game (that number might be high, but work with for a second ). Each conference has a different supervisor for the most part and what one conference might expect is not the same in another conference. Remember many of the newer officials at the NBA level have never worked games equivalent to the NBA before they were hired. I will agree that many of the officials in the NBA are very, very good, but I would suggest that many are not fully ready from a standpoint of just plain experience and making enough mistakes. Even though I did not agree with everything Mathis said about the NBA officials, but some of what he said had merit.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

One of the major problems with trying to compare all D1 with the NBA is the fact that there are fewer NBA officials. D1 has probably a little over a 1000 referees that work a D1 game (that number might be high, but work with for a second ). Each conference has a different supervisor for the most part and what one conference might expect is not the same in another conference.

Agree with that. And to expand on it, the officials within a conference are different also. Different personalities; different ideas on officiating; different tolerance levels, different ideas sometimes on how much contact to allow, etc. Jmo but I don't think that you're ever going to be able to regiment your training/evaluation down to where everything can be called exactly the same. I think that it's more reasonable to ask if any particular game was called fairly and evenly and kept under control while doing so. More often than not, the players/teams decide what kind of game that we're going to have, and we just follow along doing the best that we can.

Again, jmo but I think that NBA officiating is entertainment based, and that's why it's hard to compare the over-all effectiveness of their officiating staff with that of a top NCAA D1 conference. They're two different animals, with different rules and different goals. And that doesn't really make one set of officials markedly better than the other. I do wonder sometimes if the NBA expects too much from their officials.

Jmo, based on my impressions and not that much actual knowledge of the current NBA training/evaluation program......

[Jurassic Referee]

Interesting article this morning citing other NBA referees....

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...e-fixing_N.htm

They don't seem to be happy with the current NBA system, which was my impression from afar also. One interesting quote was the one about NBA guidelines directing officials to make calls all over the court.

Here's another one......
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...-reviews_N.htm.
Many observers are high school and college referees. Hmmmmmm.....

[gsf23]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Interesting article this morning citing other NBA referees....

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...e-fixing_N.htm

They don't seem to be happy with the current NBA system, which was my impression from afar also. One interesting quote was the one about NBA guidelines directing officials to make calls all over the court.

They are all just bitter.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

D1 has probably a little over a 1000 referees that work a D1 game (that number might be high, but work with for a second ).

Your estimate is pretty good. For documented support, Referee Magazine put the figure at approximately 900 for NCAA D1 Womens officials on page 61 of its July 2007 issue.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It seems like they want the whistle blown when bodies are hitting the floor.

Very good point. I was talking in general terms, but you're exactly right about this particular type of play. Lots of observers will say, when bodies get tangled and go down, we have to have a whistle. I don't always agree with that, but that is one play that many people would rather have a marginal whistle than a marginal no-call.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Very good point. I was talking in general terms, but you're exactly right about this particular type of play. Lots of observers will say, when bodies get tangled and go down, we have to have a whistle. I don't always agree with that, but that is one play that many people would rather have a marginal whistle than a marginal no-call.

Had a play where two players are going for an airborne ball. They both jumped in the air to get it and they hit each other, both crashing to the ground. Neither one ended up with the ball and both sides were yelling for a foul.

Coach is in my ear and I said to him, "what did the other player do that was illegal?" Coach shut up after hearing that. Not all train wrecks are fouls, but I think greater than half are.