http://sports.excite.com/news/01082002/v5809.html

Here is the story that deals with the latest of this bozo's antics.

I haven't watched a ballet game since the '98 finals. Out of curiosity, has the level of officiating gone down hill? You read a lot about the stuff shaq "gets away" with, same as MJ 10 years ago, so you have to take that with a grain of salt, but is the quality still there?

I don't watch the NBA either. I'm sure the officials are doing a fine job, but in this business if anyone is put under the microscope, I'm sure faults can be found.

Mark Cuban
 

The quality of officiating in the NBA is still outstanding and just continues to get better. Cuban's comments are unfounded. The staff is under a microscope and has constant checks and balances with effort to train, educate, continually improve, and to self-evaluate. Cuban is just trying to get attention and sell tickets. This time it cost him 500,000 to do it. Maybe he'll learn.

this fine may have cost him 1/2 mill., but he will profit from it in revenue. people love conreversey and many people think the nba officials are exactly what Cuban says they are. the nba may need to think of other ways to penalize cuban besides monetarily because taking away Cubans money does not seem like a deterrent from bad behavior.

One of Cuban's big complaints the other night in the Mavs, Spurs game, was that Tim Duncan travelled at least 10 times in the game without it being called. Of course he didn't say anything about the fact that Duncan fouled out of the game with about 2 or 3 minutes left, during the most crucial part of the game. I'm a big Mavericks fan, since I live in the Dallas area, but this guy really gets on my nerves. What he needs to realize is that his guys get away with just as much stuff as the other guys. Cuban has a staff of guys that he pays to chart every call by the officials in every game, then he sends his own personal report to the league after every game, about how many calls were missed. Unbelievable.

Since I have started officiating I have discovered how good the NBA guys are. That said, I hope you are not saying that there is not a "Star System" in that league. Nobody is going to convince me that players like MJ, Shaq, Kobe, Robinson, etc. don't get away with a lot (just like the brass wants them too - not the officials fault). To a certain extent I think Star Ball should stay, but be controlled. Nobody wants to see the studs in the league fouling out, but let's be realistic. Being from the Dallas area, the Mavericks of last year are a good example. The beginning of the year they couldn't buy a call, as the year progressed and they "earned their keep" it appeared that more of the calls that could have gone either way went their way. It is tough for a fan to enjoy the games when they feel their team is "getting jobbed" (and the fan is VERY important in this equation). It may not be true in fact, but is just their perception. But guess what, perception is reality. I may get blasted for these comments, but I'm a big boy and promise not to take offense.

As for taking money from Cuban, this guy made more than $500,000 since the moment the fine was handed down. Besides, I think he came out with his statement that most of the fine is going to Cancer Research in the name of Mrs. Nelson (who is starting her own fight with cancer after Don's fight last year). That PR move alone was worth 500k in advertising.

Mark Cuban
 

As far as the star treatment goes, Those guys are evaluated and have to watch their own films as a crew and grade themselves on how they handled each game. I don't believe an individual would last too long if they favored certain teams or players. That goes totally against what officials are all about and their job.
However, I do realize the NBA is a game of entertainment for fans and players. Are they relaxed on certain rules? YES. All fans wonder why travels are never called. First, because in the NBA a player is allowed a "two step rhythm." This is terminology in their rules, interpretations and case books plays. As such, traveling calls are much more relaxed due to this interpretation and because it is a game of entertainment.
However, I don't think fouls are passed because a certain player committed it. Nor do I think certain players get calls that aren't deserved. The game film never lies. Tape a game of yourself, you'll understand. Be your own worse critic and then you'll be doing what those guys do on a nightly basis after their games are finished.

Hey Larry, this is pure fan-speak. What do you mean the
Mavs couldn't buy a call? What do you mean calls were going
their way after they earned their keep? Perception is
reality? How about if Mark Cuban makes a statement
that the refs have nothing to do with his team's lack of
success. You think that would change the current
perception? Maybe a little? Anyway my take on this is
that Mark Cuban will eventually learn to keep his mouth shut
or he'll disappear. I doubt the NBA wants owners to
have their advertising centered on how biased the refs
are.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Hey Larry, this is pure fan-speak. What do you mean the
Mavs couldn't buy a call? What do you mean calls were going
their way after they earned their keep? Perception is
reality? How about if Mark Cuban makes a statement
that the refs have nothing to do with his team's lack of
success. You think that would change the current
perception? Maybe a little? Anyway my take on this is
that Mark Cuban will eventually learn to keep his mouth shut
or he'll disappear. I doubt the NBA wants owners to
have their advertising centered on how biased the refs
are. [/B][/QUOTE]

Dan,
You need to remember when the season started last year I was only a fan. I also said the NBA officials are the best there is, which in hind sight may not be true because there may be better officials who have no desire to call the pro game. Before anyone ask; no I cannot name specific instances of early season and late season calls. But you only have to had watch the games to see Mav players not get called for something in the late season games (when they were in the playoff hunt) that was called in the early season games. Were they better? Maybe. Was it a different crew with different philosophies? Probably. Did they have a better view than a guy watching on TV? ABSO-DAMN-LUTELY!!!

I stand by my comment that perception is reality. If a group of people thinks you're a jerk...you're a jerk to them. If a group of people thinks you're fair and above reproach...you're fair and above reproach to them. If a group of people thinks the league "protects" certain players...they do to that group of people. I does not matter what the facts are. The league (or the individual) needs to figure out how to correct their erroneous perception (if they value that group). That is true in basketball, business, politics and life. Why do you think some people love Bill Clinton and some hate him? Perception. Why do some think Bush stole the election and others think Gore tried to steal the election? Perception. You could also call it bias.

As for making Cuban disappear, when was the last time the league stripped the owner of a franchise? I don't see him selling anytime soon. If he "disappears", my guess would be that 50% of the disinterested observers of the NBA would instantly become "convinced" that Cuban was right and they had to shut him up.

By the way, the Mavericks are having HUGE success compared to the last 10 years. I think Cuban is happy for this year. I also think you will see him "clean up". It only took the other Dallas owner (the one from Arkansas) a short period of time before he hired a PR firm to help him. Trouble is he fired them and won't hire them back.

Mark Cuban
 

I agree that most of the time perception is reality. However, in this case 1 owner out of 30 is complaining (I think their are 30 or 31 teams, can't remember). So, there isn't a group, just an individual. His credibiity has dropped due to his stunts and outlandish comments, so why should the league look into it??
Anyways, the league analyized officials calls and here were the numbers, don't quote me on the exact ones. NBA Officials calls (not non-calls) were somewhere about 94% correct last year(they are shooting for higher this year). And if I remember right, that have about .5 tenths of a second to make a decision on the call.
Anyways, thought I would give some additional info on the subject, for what it's worth.

The conspiracy theories will always exist (ie NBC needs another game for the ratings and money so they need a certain team to win or lose the game to put it into game 5, 6, or even 7) When I hear this, that is a fan talking and it is a ridiculous comment.

If refs like Earl Strom, Jake O'Donnell and Richie Powers were still around, Mr. Cuban might wake up one morning with a horse's head in his bed.

Whine, whine, whine. Like the Fabulous Sports Babe would say: if you don't like the officiating, score more points.

when you make the statement that, "nba officials use the star system of officiating." this is a very strong statement. you are now stepping on the integrity of the hardest working officials in the world. the daily regiment of nba officials is very long-strenuous-and mentally difficult. these guys spend hours a day reviewing game tape watching web plays and taking tests on their website. they are even fined by the league office for missing a rule. do nba guys miss plays? certainly, for they are not perfect. i have had the plaesure of watching a post game tape with nba officials. most people would break down and cry to hear the things they say to themselves when they miss a play. they are very hard on themselves.

i believe that i have become a better official by watching numerous nba games as well as nc2a games. these guys are there for a reason-they are very good. and when you criticize them ask yourself 2 questions: why are they where they are? and, why am i where i am?

officiating is more than getting plays correct. it is game management, dealing with hostile coaches and players, and constant criticism from fans, coaches, players, and worst of all fellow officials.

bbarnaky- there are 29 teams.

BBarnaky,
You don't need to convince me the officials have a hard job given the speed of the game. And, as I stated, to a certain extent I like the "star system" that may or may not exist.

I had a professor tell me in my marketing class that for every complaint you hear, there are a hundred you don't hear so take every one seriously. Obviously there can't be 100 owners complaining but I bet if they were all honest, many would agree with at least part of what he has been saying the last year and half. Also, how many fans agree with him? They are the group to which I was referring.

I don't doubt that the calls the refs make are right 94% of the time (in fact I would have guessed a higher percentage). I think if you read Cuban's comments it is the non-calls that have him upset. Does he whine? HELL YES! Could he have a point? You betcha. Is it the most important problem the league needs to address? Nope. Could the games be called better? Don't know. Why not look into it and see if some tweeking will help?

Padgett also has a great point, the Mavericks need to be good enough to overcome the "bad officiating" if they ever want to have one of those trophies with the basketball on top.

Guys...I'm not saying that NBA officials are the dregs of the earth. I am saying the Cuban MAY have a point. If my boss wants something done a certian way, I'm gonna do it his way. I like my job, thank you very much.

I agree that everyone, especially me, can learn a lot just by watching them.

Crew,
Allow me to give you my answers to the two questions you asked?

1) Because they are excellent officials who want to be at that level. (But they are not perfect)

2) Because I just started and have no desire to ever call anything above HS varsity for 3 reasons. I enjoy the HS game and love working with "kids", I am already 44 and my job is not flexible enough to ever consider college or pro ball.

Doesn't mean I can't be an excellent official.

Let me ask you a question. Do you think they never give the benefit of the doubt to a star?

Is you answer yes, you don't think the "star system" exist. If you answer no, you just admitted it does at some level.

It may be because I'm new, but I saw a kid take his competition to school for 3 1/2 quarters the other night. Late in the 4th, it look like he traveled starting his move. I held the whistle because I thought I just didn't see it correctly. Is that a "star" getting the benefit of the doubt because he a taken this same defender about 15 times?

Cuban is a MORON!!!!

Interesting option
 

Here in Australia there have been several cases of Coaches and Owners gettign fines for comments about the referees. So the NBL (Australia's version of the NBA) has decided to air a live TV show with the head of referees, Australia's top referee, and a panel of 3 or 4 coaches, plus the two show hosts. All coaches will be able to submit comments/questions to the panel before the show is filmed, and for the duration of the show it will be open-slather, with no fines for commenting on the standard of the referees.

I'm not sure that I agree with the concept, but it should make for some interesting viewing!

There are a number of ways to disappear someone like Cuban
from an exclusive club. One way is to just fine the
sh1t out of him until he gets the message. At some point
the team will go up for sale, problem gone. I don't care
who you are and how much money you have, $500k is worth
thinking about.

Mr. Cuban would more likely leave the arena with a broken
nose.

Re: Re: Mark Cuban
 

Dude you are so wrong. I have seen many times where refs made phantom calls and Cuban *****ed about it. He was right. You might not like his method, but he was right.

Do NBA officials miss plays? yes. Do NBA officials call week "and 1" plays? yes. Do NBA officials have a bad angle because they have a closed look as opposed to an open look or get "stacked" or "straight lined" and miss plays? Yes. Do NBA officials make "phantom foul" calls because it is a certain player going to the basket? Absolutely not. I do not agree.

Cuban can disagree with judgment all day. We can all debate that. As long as the judgment from the staff is consistent thus promoting consistency across the entire staff, then all is good.

I think your accusation that an NBA official makes a "phantom call" is unfounded and I would like some clear cut examples. I watch a lot of NBA officials very closely and have the utmost respect for them. They do a great job. Do they miss plays? Yes, sure they do they are human. But they don't call "phantom calls" based on preferential treatment of a certain player(s) or team(s).

Just FYI, Cuban's 500k fine goes to the league, what they do with it, I have no idea. He matches his fines in charitable donations, so he gave another 500k to charity, quite a lot of that went to Cancer Research in Mrs. Nelson's name. So it actually cost him a mill, which probably still isn't too much for him.

You are correct. I messed up on that and didn't bother correcting it because the discussion was moving on the other areas of my post. He said last year (when the total of all fines was about $500k - and matched $ for $) that the money was nothing...he had plenty. Must be nice.

All money from fines goes to NBA charitites.

As for the reason Mark Cuban is the only 1 of 29 owners that actually says something, please refer to the $500K fine. Most fans who think Cuban is a moron only think that because they figure it's not worth half a mil to run your mouth, not because they think he's wrong. And I happen to agree that he is a real fool to blow money like that, regardless of whether or not he has a real issue worth pursuing. But he is not the only conspiracy theorist out there - remember the Bucks! Not saying he's right, but he is not the only one ever to raise a beef of this sort. Most owners/coaches/GMs just won't pay the fine, so they don't run their mouth.

It may well be that owners complain privately, that they take up issues out of the spotlight with the Commish and the officials, but they are forbidden from commenting publicly. But those are the rules of the club, so you either follow them or pay the price.

Also, I am not convinced that a renegade will be able to be forced from the club - look at Al Davis. Different circumstances, but you gotta bet that the NFL has wished him gone on more than one occasion.

I know one of his players personally and he says the team loves the guy!!

Forget what I said
 

There are some rumors that the league may up the ante in the Cuban fine department - removal of draft pikcs. This would be a "force out" in old hoop terms.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/690057.asp

Worked a local rec league game last night with an older ref. We will just gloss him "byron", since this was the style shirt he wore.

Middle of the first half (2 18 min running clock halfs)...guy calls a "force out". My skin tried to turn inside out.

Re: Forget what I said
 

Although this is severe, it's not unheard of, I think. Didn't the T-wolves lose some draft picks, among other things, b/c of the "secret contract" they had with Joe Smith? I remember McHale got suspended from the team for (I think) a whole year b/c of that deal.

Chuck

Yes, the penalty has been assessed in the past. But the case you cite is one of the penalty fitting the crime - you got a player you should not hve signed, we will now deny you players you should be able to sign. Taking draft picks for ref criticism would be completely unprecedented, and I think it would also be clear that the league was not trying to just punish, but to get rid of Cuban. Obviously, the billionaire baby can pay 1/2 mil fines for a long time before it causes him to change zip codes.

Great point, Coach. I hadn't thought of it that way before. Makes a lot of sense.

Quote:

I think it would also be clear that the league was not trying to just punish, but to get rid of Cuban.

You really think so? To me, I would think that it's just trying to find something that he cares about to motivate him to change his behavior. Like a child who doesn't respond to "time-outs". He'll sit in time-out and play with his imaginary friend and then when the time-out is done, he goes right back and keeps doing what he just got punished for. So then you take away his TV for a week. You know what I'm trying to get at? It doesn't have to be malicious on Stern's part; just trying to find something to get Cuban to comply with league rules.

Think I'm too naive about it?

Chuck

Gotta grant you that point Chuck. Just because Cuban said that penalty would force him out doesn't mean that it is the league's intent to get rid of him. But something in me thinks that the league would be just as happy to see him hit the road, regardless of whether or not they would take an action with that intent!

Just my opinion, but in a way I think they have both (Cuban and Stern) let this get personal. From talking to many fans in the Dallas area and where business takes me (and like it or not, the fans are of VITAL importance to the league), the vast majority think Cuban has a point but needs to learn to communicate better and through proper channels. Putting aside the dicussion on whether Cuban has a point, most feel the league is scared to look at the numbers Cuban has hired people to compile or conduct their own study.

You may also be suprised to know that everyone (fan) I spoke with thinks the officials are calling and interpreting the way they have been instructed. In other words, they put the blame on the owners. Lastly, they think Stern needs to remember that Cuban is one of the people he works for.

Personal opinion, if "the league" would simply say; "Mark, shut up. We will look into what you are saying but your antics, while the may be helping get you team and DQ a lot of free press, are hurting the league." I think things would get better fast. I could be reading Cuban totally wrong, my feeling is that he just wants somebody to listen to what he has to say and acknowledge that if ANYONE thinks he is right, doesn't matter if he is, and things are getting worse then they need to look at why the fans feel that way and address it.

I would be shocked if they take away picks. But hey, I've been wrong before :D

I don't agree with his ref bashing, but you have to admit he has injected a lot of life into that franchise and the league itself. I think he has the model franchise (short of the lakers) now. Just think if Crybaby Snyder would run the skins liek Cuban does. They are basically the same type of owner - young, rich, and only bought the team becasuethey are a fan, yet Snbyder is driving the skins into the ground.

Last 3 posts, from Brian, Lary, and Hawks Coach, are all excellent. I'm think the league would be happy if Cuban were to take his ball and go home, but he really has done an amazing job with that club. And Larry's right that it's become way too personal for Stern and Cuban. Even at the DQ, Cuban was saying stuff about stern. "I haven't been yelled at all day, so David must not be here."

Time to be grown ups and figure out how to make this go away.

Chuck

Ah yes, the fan opinions. Do you think the Dallas fans
would have the same opinion if Cuban owned, say, the
Knicks?

Honestly, yes I do. I think they would be more critical of his approach but would agree with the message. The game of basketball from NCAA DI down is, IMHO, for the players first. NBA basketball is fan entertainment first, business second, and a sporting event third. Many may not like it, but professional sports of any kind ceases to exist if the fans don't buy tickets, shirts, hats, sweaters, etc.