Last second shot & foul

[Hawks Coach]

devdog
Just cause you have to explain it to Coach B doesn't make it the wrong call. It was his player that committed the foul with 1.5 seconds left. I will admit that it's an awful kind of situation, but you must allow the basket by rule. To fail to do so takes away critical points from A with no rational or rulebook basis for doing so, except that it saves you an uncomfortable explanation. Know the rule, explain it with confidence, allow the basket, and shoot the FT. That's your job, it's why you put on the striped shirt.

[devdog69]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
devdog
Just cause you have to explain it to Coach B doesn't make it the wrong call. It was his player that committed the foul with 1.5 seconds left. I will admit that it's an awful kind of situation, but you must allow the basket by rule. To fail to do so takes away critical points from A with no rational or rulebook basis for doing so, except that it saves you an uncomfortable explanation. Know the rule, explain it with confidence, allow the basket, and shoot the FT. That's your job, it's why you put on the striped shirt.

You are entitled to your opinion which is all it is, as far as I'm concerned. I am not refusing to count this basket to save an explanation, it's because it should not count. You will not convince me to count a basket that is released after the horn sounds. The fact that the clock should have been properly stopped before the horn sounds, does not, IMO, change this. I do know the rule, and I am confident. I quoted the rule I am standing by, I didn't see yours. I really don't think it will ever happen, but if it does I will stand by my position, irregardless. :-)

[Hawks Coach]

I am only referring to the situation in which the referee has definite knowledge that the whistle went at 1.5 seconds left. By rule (case book - Mark Dexter has citation), the timer has a 1 second lag allowed, no more. With definite knowledge, the 1 second lag must be enforced to the tenth. So the horn may have sounded, but it by rule should not have sounded and .5 seconds are put back on the clock. If you restore the .5 seconds, which you must by rule with definite knowledge, then you must count the bucket, because by rule, the horn has not yet sounded. This is not opinion, this is NF rules.

To take another situation, if you have a whistle for a traveling violation with 1.5 seconds left and definite knowledge, but horn soundsanyway , you restore the clock to .5 seconds. This situation is no different. We have a made shot on a continuous motion and the game is not yet over. Count the bucket, shoot the free throw.

[Edited by Hawks Coach on Jan 8th, 2002 at 11:12 AM]

[ChuckElias]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by devdog69

I will stand by my position, irregardless. :-)

Now you did it on purpose that time!! You're just trying to make poor Mark's head explode. Shame on you.

Chuck

[devdog69]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I am only referring to the situation in which the referee has definite knowledge that the whistle went at 1.5 seconds left. By rule (case book - Mark Dexter has citation), the timer has a 1 second lag allowed, no more. With definite knowledge, the 1 second lag must be enforced to the tenth. So the horn may have sounded, but it by rule should not have sounded and .5 seconds are put back on the clock. If you restore the .5 seconds, which you must by rule with definite knowledge, then you must count the bucket, because by rule, the horn has not yet sounded. This is not opinion, this is NF rules.

To take another situation, if you have a whistle for a traveling violation with 1.5 seconds left and definite knowledge, but horn soundsanyway , you restore the clock to .5 seconds. This situation is no different. We have a made shot on a continuous motion and the game is not yet over. Count the bucket, shoot the free throw.

[Edited by Hawks Coach on Jan 8th, 2002 at 11:12 AM]

We are all familiar with the one second "lag time" concept, that is not the issue. I agree we put .5 seconds on the clock, shoot the free throw(s) and the game is not yet over. The second situation is not even close to the same, because it doesn't involve a shot that is released after the horn. The only thing that may alter my decision is if I was so in awe of a player who could be fouled yet stay in the air for more than 1.5 seconds before he release the ball on a shot, i.e., it is not going to happen. You keep saying "by rule", it is "NF rule", but no rule or casebook citing. I stand by my decision based on the comment on 10-6-3, last paragraph on page 63. Just to make you happy, though, I am forwarding this on to the higher ups in my state. I am sure they will be thrilled to hear from me, again.

[Hawks Coach]

I was looking at your original rule reference, which could not possibly apply if you put time on the clock. In your second post you cite 6-7 exception, which deals with the end of a period before ball is in flight. If you put time back on, the end of period did not occur, so that rule is not applicable. As for your citing the comment in 10-6 -3 summary of fouls and penalties, I am not clear how the ball became dead. Not because of end of period, time went back on clock. We are assuming continuous shooting motion, i.e., if this had happened and clock had stopped as it should, you would have counted the goal. So how is ball dead before try was complete?

[devdog69]

yea, 10-6-3 was the reference for the illegal screen discussion, has no bearing on this discussion. The third exception to 6-7 is the rule I should have cited. That says ...provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. That happened, it shouldn't have, granted, but it did. This gives me definite knowledge and I won't count the basket.

[w_sohl]

Originally posted by williebfree

Like this! " "

Seriously, look at the bottom of the individual posting that you want to "quote". There is a small Icon with the creatively-chosen word "quote". Click it and it should become apparent what you need to do next.

Good luck!

Sometimes the obvious is oblivious to me (except during a basketball game).

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by devdog69
yea, 10-6-3 was the reference for the illegal screen discussion, has no bearing on this discussion. The third exception to 6-7 is the rule I should have cited. That says ...provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. That happened, it shouldn't have, granted, but it did. This gives me definite knowledge and I won't count the basket.

If time expired, why is there time on the clock? If you put time on the clock, by definition, time has not expired. It is completely inconsistent and illogical to conclude that you have .5 seconds on the clock but time has expired. When time expires, the period is over and we don't play that period any more. I am sorry that I cannot find a rule that tells you this specifically, but it seems pretty clear that time expiring equals period over.

[Edited by Hawks Coach on Jan 8th, 2002 at 01:39 PM]

[devdog69]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

If time expired, why is there time on the clock? If you put time on the clock, by definition, time has not expired. It is completely inconsistent and illogical to conclude that you have .5 seconds on the clock but time has expired. When time expires, the period is over and we don't play that period any more. I am sorry that I cannot find a rule that tells you this specifically, but it seems pretty clear that time expiring equals period over.

[Edited by Hawks Coach on Jan 8th, 2002 at 01:39 PM]

Let's see, how hard could this really be.
1. Time expired, meaning the clock was allowed to run to 0.00 and the horn sounded. Fact.
2. Official correctly determines that clock should have been stopped at .5 seconds and puts time back on clock. Now there is time on the clock. It is absurd to say this is "completely inconsistent and illogical."
To recap, there was time on the clock, time expired incorrectly, the official put time back on the clock, now we have time on the clock.
You can't find a rule or case because there isn't one, maybe there should be.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by devdog69
yea, 10-6-3 was the reference for the illegal screen discussion, has no bearing on this discussion. The third exception to 6-7 is the rule I should have cited. That says ...provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. That happened, it shouldn't have, granted, but it did. This gives me definite knowledge and I won't count the basket.

Try reading it this way: "...providing time did not PROPERLY / LEGALLY expire before ..."

Or, try this:

Score: A 65, B 62. You blow the whistle with 1.5 left for a simple violation (OOB, say). The clock continues to run and the horn sounds. Coach A hears the horn and, umm, creatively expresses his disgust with the officiating effort. You correctly issue a T. Do you shoot the throws?

By your logic, I'd guess no -- the T occurred after time expired and the shots wouldn't affect the score. So now you're going to put time back on the clock (.5 seconds in FED) and continue the game??

I think you have to shoot the throws (regardless of the score) and continue the game. And, I think you need to count the basket in the original situation.

[Hawks Coach]

I think the rulemakers figured that by allowing for correction of timing mistakes, that it is obvious when you put time on the clock, time for that period has not expired. Time expiring deals only with the end of a period. If you are on the court with the clock showing .5 seconds left in the third period, time for the third period cannot have expired!

Suppose we put the .5 on the clock, A1 misses free throw and A2 taps ball before 3rd period horn sounds (for second time!). Basket doesn't count in your rulebook, because time for the third period already expired when we heard the erroneous horn. That is the absurd extension of your conclusion that time has expired, but time is on the clock.

Time for a period can only expire once. Nothing can happen other than one or more free throws with lane cleared, and with zero seconds on clock, after time expires for a period.

[devdog69]

Guess we will have to agree to disagree because I am still not going to count the freakin shot and I hope I get a coach like you, cuz then we're going to get lots of shots to shoot.

[devdog69]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Try reading it this way: "...providing time did not PROPERLY / LEGALLY expire before ..."

Or, try this:

Score: A 65, B 62. You blow the whistle with 1.5 left for a simple violation (OOB, say). The clock continues to run and the horn sounds. Coach A hears the horn and, umm, creatively expresses his disgust with the officiating effort. You correctly issue a T. Do you shoot the throws?

By your logic, I'd guess no -- the T occurred after time expired and the shots wouldn't affect the score. So now you're going to put time back on the clock (.5 seconds in FED) and continue the game??

I think you have to shoot the throws (regardless of the score) and continue the game. And, I think you need to count the basket in the original situation.

Totally different situations you guys keep throwing out. What makes you dream up that I wouldn't shoot shots on a T, or ignore a violation? My logic is simply this: By the horn going off, I have DEFINITE KNOWLEDGE that A1 would not/did not release the ball before the horn. Therefore, I am going to wave the shot, give him two shots, put .5 seconds back on the clock. Don't start putting words in my mouth or saying, if this or if that happened. It didn't: this supposedly happened, though, it will never, ever happen in an actual game without divine intervention.

[devdog69]

Must have hit "quote" instead of "edit/delete" didn't know you could double post on this board.

Originally posted by devdog69

Totally different situations you guys keep throwing out. What makes you dream up that I wouldn't shoot shots on a T, or ignore a violation? My logic is simply this: By the horn going off, I have DEFINITE KNOWLEDGE that A1 would not/did not release the ball before the horn. Therefore, I am going to wave the shot, give him two shots, put .5 seconds back on the clock. Don't start putting words in my mouth or saying, if this or if that happened. It didn't: this supposedly happened, though, it will never, ever happen in an actual game without divine intervention.

And, btw, it doesn't say ...providing that time did not PROPERLY/LEGALLY expire before... It shouldn't have to how else can time expire, as Coach says. I'm not saying that time "is" expired, just that it expired for a period, I put time back on the clock, but the error gave me enough additional knowledge to apply common sense to my interpretatin of the rules.

[Edited by devdog69 on Jan 8th, 2002 at 02:31 PM]