Number change in book...

[paulis]

Red (home)#10 reports and enters game half way through the second period. In the official book as well as the visitor's book, they have her as #31. Both books make the change by erasing #31 and writing in #10 but without notifying the officials. We finish the first half and during halftime the visiting scorekeeper tells the visiting coach about the change. As we are about to begin the second half, the visiting coach informs us about the change. Is it too late to assess a T for the red team?

[Mark Dexter]

Yes, it is too late. This must be discovered and penalized when the infraction occurs. When the ball becomes live, it is too late. See 10.1.2.

[paulis]

Gotcha. Back to the game: When the visiting coach informs us of the change in the book (just at the end of halftime) we confer with the official (home)scorekeeper who verifies that yes she did change the players number when she entered in the second period. We asked her if anything like this had ever happened to her while keeping score and she replied that yes it had and a technical foul was called on her team. So we issue the T! Comments on how it was handled?

[Mark Dexter]

Comment #1 - never officiate games based on previous ones. If a girl has earrings, and she (truthfully) says "Last night's ref let me keep them in," are you going to let her keep the earrings?

Comment #2 - You had the ultimate Catch-22 of a scorer - he/she knew it was a technical, but was unaware of the "statute of limitations."

Comment #3 - If the scorers agree to "take care of it themselves" (i.e., not wanting a stupid technical foul), they should keep it to themselves.

Comment #4 - Remind the visiting book that they are an official, too, and that they should not feel "bullied" by the home scorer into saying nothing (may not have happened here, but . . .). The visiting scorer has as much right to get the floor officials' attention as the home team.

[Doug]

Well put Mark

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Doug
Well put Mark

I've spent so many years on clock/book that managing those is easy for me during games.

Now if I can only perfect the other nine rules . . .

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by paulis
Comments on how it was handled?

Just to expound on why it was wrong to call the T:

The T must be called when the change is made in the book.
If the change is made and the scorer does not notify you prior to the ball becoming live, then it's too late.
If the player enters and the book is not changed, You can charge the T when you are notified, even though she's alreay in the game.
Finally, you can only call one T based on this rule in a game.
Any further scorebook errors are a free ride for #31's team.

[JRutledge]

Is it a T because the scorer on their own changed it, or is it a T because the information is incorrect? And what if none of the players played in the game with the incorrect numbers? Do we still give Ts out for wrong numbers and wrong names if none of the players in question do not play?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Is it a T because the scorer on their own changed it, or is it a T because the information is incorrect? And what if none of the players played in the game with the incorrect numbers? Do we still give Ts out for wrong numbers and wrong names if none of the players in question do not play?

The T is for changing the book to match the player or the player to match the book. If Jonny is listed as 14, but is wearing 32, and never goes in the game, we have nothing.

[JRutledge]

[i]Originally posted by Mark Dexter
The T is for changing the book to match the player or the player to match the book. If Jonny is listed as 14, but is wearing 32, and never goes in the game, we have nothing. [/B]

Well, Are you going to give a T if the scorer did it on their own, or are you going to give a T just when the one of the coaches tell the scorer or does it themselves?

And I guess this is an even better question. Do your require the information to be written in the book by the 10 minute mark or can the information be on a piece of paper at the table?

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Is it a T because the scorer on their own changed it, or is it a T because the information is incorrect? And what if none of the players played in the game with the incorrect numbers? Do we still give Ts out for wrong numbers and wrong names if none of the players in question do not play?

There is no T. To have a T, the officials must be notified that a number is incorrect and needs to be changed. In this case, the scorer changed it and didn't notify the official. Once the change is made and the ball becomes live, we can't call a T.

[w_sohl]

It is my understanding that the information MUST be entered into the OFFICIAL SCOREBOOK before the ten minuet mark or a technical is assesed.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by w_sohl
It is my understanding that the information MUST be entered into the OFFICIAL SCOREBOOK before the ten minuet mark or a technical is assesed.

Incorrect. The rule says nothing about being entered. It says that the names and numbers must be summited or designate the starters. It says nothing about having to be written in at all. So in really you could have the names on a piece of paper given to the scorer. Rule 3-2-1.

Think about it, what if the scorer does not write the names in before 10 minutes and all the information is in front of them? I do not think the intent of the rule is to give the visiting team a T for the behavior of someone associated with the home team. Or better yet, what if the scorer is out getting something from the concession stand and is no where to be found? You are not going to give a T then either I hope?

Just something to think about.

[Hawks Coach]

In reply to the second question jrut posed - is it a T because scorer changed it themselves, or only if coach notified them to change it? In reality, neither. It is a T when player reports with wrong number, as long as ref knows it. If scorer says nothing and chooses to change it, or if scorer is asked to change it and does so without notifying refs, not gonna have a T. It takes a good bench person on opposing bench to catch a sub with wrong number, and say something before ball is live in this situation, and then you would still have a T.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by JRutledge
And I guess this is an even better question. Do your require the information to be written in the book by the 10 minute mark or can the information be on a piece of paper at the table?

The only requirement is that the scorer be provided with this information by the time that 10:00 shows on the clock. This way, the visiting team is not penalized if the home coach is taking a long time to fill in his half of the official book and finishes at 10:01 to go.