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-   -   What is the correct procedure? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/35637-what-correct-procedure.html)

KCRef Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:57am
What if this happened in the front court and there was no counting? When you discover it, could you just yell to the timer to start the clock. I could see how this might not work near the end of a period, but otherwise it would make sense. With no knowledge of the time run off, blowing the whistle would do no good, and would only cause the team in possession to have a throw-in.

JugglingReferee Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCRef
What if this happened in the front court and there was no counting? When you discover it, could you just yell to the timer to start the clock. I could see how this might not work near the end of a period, but otherwise it would make sense. With no knowledge of the time run off, blowing the whistle would do no good, and would only cause the team in possession to have a throw-in.
I agree. Just tell them to start the clock. There's no sense of giving B a potential advantage.

I've worked into my game in the dying seconds to count anyways - and I make it very visible. Some courts I do have very green time keepers. In the event they do forget to start the clock in the frontcourt, I know exaclty what time to take off.

Mark Dexter Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee
My first additional button is called Factor. It works like this: you press Factor, then two digits such as 85, then Factor again. This tells the clock to remove a second from the display (and internal memory) every 0.85 seconds. Used in a blowout only, you can save 288s, or 4min 48s!! :D
Actually, really good clock operators can (depending on the clock model) just key in the different times in less than a second, so that the clock appears to be running normally. I've known a few guys who have done it in football; might be a bit harder in basketball.

Adam Thu Jun 14, 2007 01:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave30
I didn't have definite knowledge. My backcourt count was at 4 (I think, can't remember off the top of my head) when the player crossed midcourt. Then she dribbled into the frontcourt and was not guarded closely. My co-official blew the whistle after he noticed the clock, but the ball had been in the frontcourt for 3 or 4 seconds. It was one of those gyms where we only had one clock and it was behind me.
I don't think anyone has caught this and commented yet (I'm not sure, because my eyes started glazing over towards the end of the first page).
You had definite knowledge of 4 seconds to half-court. At minimum, you could have inbounded the ball at half-court with 4 seconds removed from the clock.
Again, any point with more than a minute (this number is arbitrary) on the clock, just yell towards the operator to start the clock.

Camron Rust Thu Jun 14, 2007 04:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
I don't think anyone has caught this and commented yet (I'm not sure, because my eyes started glazing over towards the end of the first page).
You had definite knowledge of 4 seconds to half-court. At minimum, you could have inbounded the ball at half-court with 4 seconds removed from the clock.
I agree. There are those that don't understand that definite knowledge is not the same as complete or exact and will assert that unless you know ALL the time that should have passed, you can't take anything off. All the rule requires is that you only take off as much as you KNOW and no more, no less. If you have counts adding up to 17 but have gaps in the middle of the count, you take off 17. You definitely know that those 17 seconds passed. You don't know how much else passed in the gaps, so you don't take off anything for the gaps.

Mark Dexter Thu Jun 14, 2007 04:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
I agree. There are those that don't understand that definite knowledge is not the same as complete or exact and will assert that unless you know ALL the time that should have passed, you can't take anything off. All the rule requires is that you only take off as much as you KNOW and no more, no less. If you have counts adding up to 17 but have gaps in the middle of the count, you take off 17. You definitely know that those 17 seconds passed. You don't know how much else passed in the gaps, so you don't take off anything for the gaps.
That's always been my interpretation.

Jurassic Referee Thu Jun 14, 2007 04:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
There are those that don't understand that definite knowledge is not the same as complete or exact and will assert that unless you know ALL the time that should have passed, you can't take anything off.
Yup, put me in that group. Apparently you can also put in that group the people who wrote NFHS 5-10 also. That rule says that you can't take time off or put time on the clock without knowing <b>exactly</b> by using definite or official information how much time is involved.

It might be a very good idea for you to talk to someone about your interpretation, Camron. Your take on it is completely wrong, rules-wise, and also goes completely against the purpose and intent of that particular rule.

Jurassic Referee Thu Jun 14, 2007 04:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Dexter
That's always been my interpretation.
Might be a good idea to check your interpretation with your association's rules interpreter.

Camron Rust Thu Jun 14, 2007 05:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Yup, put me in that group. Apparently you can also put in that group the people who wrote NFHS 5-10 also. That rule says that you can't take time off or put time on the clock without knowing exactly by using definite or official information how much time is involved.

It might be a very good idea for you to talk to someone about your interpretation, Camron. Your take on it is completely wrong, rules-wise, and also goes completely against the purpose and intent of that particular rule.
This, coming form the guy who's going to take the ball, which was legally advanced to midcourt, back to the endline if he can't figure out how much time to take off the clock...all despite very clear rules that make no exception for timing mistakes???? :confused:

As far as the rule goes, do you mean this one:
<DL>
SECTION 10 TIMER'S MISTAKES
<DD>ART. 1 . . . The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she had definite information relative to the time involved. <DD>ART. 2 . . . If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's count or other official information can be used to make a correction.</DD>
</DL>I don't see anything in there about EXACT or complete time. It says "definite information relative to the time involved". I definitely have information that is relative to the time involved. If I know I counted to 7, that it definite information. If I later counted to 4, that is also definite information. I can use whatever definite information I have to make the correction. I can't use anything else, to make a bigger correction.

What you can't do is take the two counts, add them together, then guess at a few more seconds for the time between counts. That is adding information that is not definite, but a guess.

The purpose and intent is to not allow guessing but to use only real information. The purpose is NOT to require an unbroken set of counts in order to make a correction.

Jurassic Referee Thu Jun 14, 2007 06:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
As far as the rule goes, do you mean this one:
<DL>[INDENT]SECTION 10 TIMER'S MISTAKES
<DD>ART. 1 . . . The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she had <font color = red>definite information relative to the time involved</font>. <DD>
Yup, I mean the rule that states that you must have <b>EXACT</b> knowledge, not <b>SOME</b> of the knowledge. Are you really insisting that you might have 4 seconds for a backcourt count and then the team plays for 15-20 seconds in the frontcourt, you are now gonna blow your whistle and take 4 freaking seconds off the clock? Feel free to do that. I'd rupture something laughing if I tried that.

deecee Thu Jun 14, 2007 09:28pm
so have we decided whos is bigger?

i hate to say this however unless we have definite knowledge i have to side with JR and go back to the previous spot where we did and redo.

what if offense has the ball on the baseline near low post and we stop play and the player was trapped. now they get a good inbounds position and on top of that if we have no idea how much time to take off its just a reminder to the table to start the clock. to many variables here.

just take it back to the spot of last knowledge of the time and play ball.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Thu Jun 14, 2007 09:55pm
New play same situation:

1) B1 makes a free throw.

2) A1 takes the ball out-of-bounds for the ensuing throw-in and passes the ball inbounds to A2.

3) A2 immediately fires a baseball pass to A3 who is sprinting down the court.

4) A3 catches the ball in Team A's free throw lane and immediately shoots a layup which is successful.

5) At this point, the officials discover that the game clock as not started.

Question: a) Does A3's field goal count and the game is resumed by a throw-in by Team B anywhere along the endline in its backcourt? Or b) Does must Team A have to do its throw-in after B1's free throw all over again?

MTD, Sr.

Mark Dexter Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Question: a) Does A3's field goal count and the game is resumed by a throw-in by Team B anywhere along the endline in its backcourt? Or b) Does must Team A have to do its throw-in after B1's free throw all over again?

MTD, Sr.
I'm voting (a), but I'm a bit biased. Great situation, Mark.

Camron Rust Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Yup, I mean the rule that states that you must have EXACT knowledge, not SOME of the knowledge. Are you really insisting that you might have 4 seconds for a backcourt count and then the team plays for 15-20 seconds in the frontcourt, you are now gonna blow your whistle and take 4 freaking seconds off the clock? Feel free to do that. I'd rupture something laughing if I tried that.
Show me that rule...the one that says "exact".

I may not actually do it but the rules say I can. I sure as heck wouldn't blow my whistle and make the team start over in the backcourt as you've suggested is the thing to do.

Nevadaref Fri Jun 15, 2007 06:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
New play same situation:

1) B1 makes a free throw.

2) A1 takes the ball out-of-bounds for the ensuing throw-in and passes the ball inbounds to A2.

3) A2 immediately fires a baseball pass to A3 who is sprinting down the court.

4) A3 catches the ball in Team A's free throw lane and immediately shoots a layup which is successful.

5) At this point, the officials discover that the game clock as not started.

Question: a) Does A3's field goal count and the game is resumed by a throw-in by Team B anywhere along the endline in its backcourt? Or b) Does must Team A have to do its throw-in after B1's free throw all over again?

MTD, Sr.
(a) would be the proper choice and the officials are to confer and remove time from the clock. That is according to the new INTELLIGENT NCAA ruling, which basically tells the officials to use, the monitor if there is one, but if not, their best judgment to come up with how much time to take off. The NCAA very specifically says no do-overs.

Even in an NFHS game, one cannot nullify game action just because someone forgot to start the clock.


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