Sorry nobody has answered your good questions, but this thread has basically been hijacked. Also, someone should please correct me if I'm wrong, since I don't have my books with me to confirm my answer, which is:

In both of your situations, the offensive player would not have control of the ball which means the time/space criteria applies, which means it is a block in both of your situations. Fumbles by definition mean no control, so you cannot call a player control foul.

Time and distance does not apply to a player in control of the ball and is not airborne. The player in the original post had control of the ball and was not airborne when the defensive player obtained/established a legal guarding position. More the fifty years ago the Rules Committee affimred that an offensive player should expect to be guarded from the instant he ganed control of the ball. It was this expectation of being guarded is the foundation for how the guarding/screening rules are written.

MTD, Sr.

This is actually a very good question. It was discussed at some length in this recent thread:

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...=time+distance

I realize that. I was answering dkmz's questions as what would be the call if the offensive player did not have control of the ball. Sorry for not clarifying that.

You are forgiven and I grant you dispensation. Say ten Hail Mary's and do not let it happen again. :D

MTD, Sr.

Actually, Mark, it's you who owes penance since you're the one who misunderstood his intent. :D

You need to defend ten Hail Mary's under the watchful eye of Touchdown Jesus.

Go Buckeyes!!

MTD, Sr.

Since DKMZ's old question was answered, maybe mine will be also if I rephrase. B1 gets position as in the video, A1 lands with his left foot clearly between the feet of B1 (in the actual video it is not that cut and dry) - no contact on landing, A1 turns, weight shifting forward but not outside the verticle plane of A1, A1 begins dribble and at the same time makes contact with B1. Do we still have the charge?

From your description, it sounds like it's still a charge, especially with no contact on landing. I can't really say for sure without seeing it. I did see the video at the start of this thread though, and imo it certainly was cut and dried that it was a charge. No doubt at all in my mind on that one.

What Bob Jenkins posted back in post #3 on page 1 is still valid. You allow the player with the ball to land. If he lands without contact, you can't have a foul. After that, the LGP rules take over and no time/distance is necessary on the part of the defender.

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Written without thinking, obviously. I went back and changed it.

Thanks, Juulie.

You're welcome, but I didn't do it for your sake. It was just that seeing you agree with OS threatened to jerk the rug right out from under my entire worldview. I knew, I just knew, you didn't mean it, but I couldn't take the chance!

i don't see this play as being as black and white as y'all here do. the defender is literally milliseconds away from "submarining" an airborne player with his back turned. i find the attack on those who would call a block a little over the top and hard headed...sometimes when a ref who makes a call (or a post here)cannot see the other side, I think we need to be open to others opinions.
I believe I would have called pc foul here, but that does not discount others opinions...thats all they are...they did not make this call.

Unfortunately some here find it hard to take off the whistle, this is not the court...it's a discussion forum right?

IIRC, no one is attacking those who might have called a block in real time. It's a close play, and we miss some, and in the OP, the "best position" was where the camera was, not where either of the officials were.

We're objecting to those who agree with all the relevant facts that go into the call, and then choose to ignore the rule and call the opposite and then try to defend that decision.

No, upon first reaction, he saw and penalize just like any other official in that situation, including myself. BLOCK! The only difference is I admit it.