Is there moving screen in the paint?
 

I boxed out this guy from putting any defense on my team shooting the ball and he called moving screen. This was game point and we ended up replaying the point.

Couldnt I argue that I was boxing out for the possible rebound?

Defense is the green circle and I'm the red X next to it. The shooter is the Red X by itself.

http://impulse100.net/up/211_large64440.jpg

Screening can be called anywhere on the court.

Also, it doesn't matter what your intent is, if you illegally set a screen and contact the defender, it's a foul.

My favorite :rolleyes: call has always been calling a foul on a player who sets to "box out," but then extends his hip and pushes his opponent a good five feet. They always protest when the whistle blows and I just respond "when you push the guy that far, it's not boxing out."

First of all there is no such thing as a "moving screen" that suggest something illegal took place. You can have a stationary screen and still be called for a foul under the right circumstances and you can screen someone while moving and be perfectly legal.

As stated you can be called for an "illegal screen" anywhere on the court. The lane does not exonerate you from being called of any type of foul.

Peace

It's completely impossible to give you a definitive answer without actually seeing the play.

There are a lot of variables here, as various ones have mentioned. Boxing out can be legal or illegal, moving screens aren't always illegal, and none of that has anything to do with the key. Perhaps you could re-describe the situation? Who got where first? Did you have legal position? Did your opponent? Was verticality an issue in the play? Was there contact?

Your play-pic is very good, and helps way more than some of the other questions we get, but it would be even more helpful if you could describe how the play unfolded over time, and use A1 to mean the shooter, A2 to mean you, and B1 to mean the defense who claims you "moving screened" him.

Example: A1 and A2 crossed the division line at the same time. B1 was near the top of the key intending to guard A1. A2 ran ahead and set a screen to keep B1 from the shooter. A2 established legal position so that A1 could get to the basket before B1. B1 attempted to get around A2, but A2 moved to keep B1 away from A1. B1 pulled up and there was no contact.

In this play, the description tells each action and how the players were relating to each other. If you can describe your play like this we can give you some guidelines that might help you determine how to do things legally next time.

Well it unfolded like this:

A1 = shooter
A2 = Me
B1 = Defender

My teammate misses a shot and A2 and B1 go for the rebound. I come down with it and pretty much at the same time A1 gets away from his defender and is wide open right in front of me. I pass him the ball, but he fumbles with the ball before he shoots. During this process A2 is boxing out B1 because he wants to rotate off to defend A1.

http://impulse100.net/up/basketball_halfcourt.jpg

What you have just described does not make the situation any clearer in my opinion. As Jurassic said, it is almost impossible to know what happen without being there. Even if you say one thing happen, the official that was on the game saw something different. Bottom line is everyone is allowed a place on the floor as long as they got their legally. At this point it is very hard to understand what really happened on this play.

Peace

Come on guys! It's not that hard to figure out what he's asking.

If B1 (the defender) is trying to get by A2 (you) to the shooter (A1), you have to set a legal screen to not commit a foul. If you (A2) are moving when there is contact, you've likely committed a foul (unless you're moving directly away from B1).

Also considered is whether team A gains an advantage from the contact. If B1 was close enough to get to the shooter before the shot if not for A2's illegal screen, that is an advantage. If they're too far away, no advantage...no call...since B1 would have been there too late to make a play on the shot.

The official has to distinguish B1 and A2 are merely jockying (legally) for a better position in the post or if B2 is trying to get to A1. If A2 is moving and there is contact but B1 is not trying to get to A1 (official's judgement) there will likely be no foul...it's not a screen.

Camron, you are a man of many talents, and I admire your reffing abilities and you computer acumen. But I didn't know you had ESP. Next game you and I have together, we'll just sit at the coffee shop and shoot the bull, and ref from there, eh?

Panda, when contact occurred between A2 and B1, were you facing each other? Were you both moving? Where on the bodies was the contact?

I am going to have to agree with Juulie here. It sounds like you know more about the situation than the OPer pointed out. All that we know is three players are involved and they were near each other and a foul was called on the OPer. This person is obviously not an official and they are not using language that really describes the situation very well. Whether the official missed the call or not is something we can only speculate about. But to say we understand is a stretch.

Peace

To legally set this screen, you have to establish your position, short of contact with your opponent.

You cannot extend any part of your body into his path if he is trying to get around you.

As far as the rule book is concerned, there's no such thing as "boxing out."

When a player is "boxing out" as taught by a coach, he cannot extend any part of his body into the path of his opponent.

I understand I cant describe the situation as detailed as you guys want.

This was only a pick-up game and usually a lot of rules aren't obeyed except the simple ones. Illegal screens aren't usually called and this was the first time I've seen it called.

I was just wanted to clarify if the person who called the illegal screen actually had an argument, since I thought it couldn't be called in the paint.

I didn't know this forum actually had REAL refs on it. I just googled basketball forum and wanted other's people opinion on this. Thank you for your time.

Juulie, read what he wrote again and read it with a player's mind. He told us pretty much everything....just not in technical terms.

I don't claim to have ESP but we, on this board, often expect questions worded in near perfect rulebook jargon. We jump all over non-officials with reasonable, legit questions when they're phrased in laymans terms...even when it's not that hard to figure out what they're really asking. Some call them fanboys (some of them are but not all). Some belittle them. I wouldn't hurt to be a bit more tolerant and not slam the guy for not fitting the casebook question format.

Camron,

No one was slamming the guy. We just did not know what he wanted to know. We cannot tell what someone called based on where people are standing. Also no one was expecting perfect jargon either, but if he wants to understand where we are coming from, we are going to give proper language in our description. If I ask a doctor what is the cause of an illness or a condition, I do not expect them to talk only in terms that do not give the proper name for a condition or not to name the proper body parts based on what the medical profession calls them. I was perfectly willing to describe the situation with more information. Right now you are the only person that seemed to know what this person was saying. Everyone else seemed either confused or not clear what happen on the play. All I do know is that where the players are standing and that he thinks you cannot call a moving screen in the lane. Everything else is a complete guess.

Peace

An illegal screen can be called anywhere on the playing floor.

Camron -- I wasn't calling him a fanboy, and I wasn't belittling him. Actually, I was trying to give him the serious attention that is due to someone who asks an honest question and expects a well-thought out answer. I was trying to poke you in the ribs a little, but that apparently fell flat, just like a lot of my other jibes that day.

I really wasn't sure what happened, and I really couldn't read into his description what had happened. That call depends entirely on who had legal guarding position, or other legal position on the floor, and I just couldn't tell. SO I was trying to elicit more details to give him a good answer.

Agree, that neither rainmaker nor JRutledge was slamming/belittleing this particular guy but it does happen all to often here....and it was beginning to look like it was going that direction.

Some of us are, anyhow. Then there's .... oh, forget it.

Is there moving screen in the paint?

Someone with a good memory is going to have to help me out. But I'm pretty sure I remember an NCAA tournament game (might've been a conference tournament) a few years ago that had a somewhat controversial call regarding a screen in the paint. Here's the description, as well as I can remember it.

There was a 2-on-1 fast break. A1 was dribbling down the middle of the court to the basket. A2 and B2 were slightly ahead of and to the left of A1, with A2 between A1 and B2. As A1 got near the basket, A2 subtly extended his left arm and held B2 so that B2 could not make a play on A1. The Lead official called the holding foul and there was a lot of consternation. . . until they showed the replay. And sure enough, you could see A2 holding B2 away from the play.

Anybody remember that game?

Do you mean the NCAA Tournament game where there was a 2-on-1 fast break, A1 was dribbling down the middle of the court to the basket, A2 and B2 were slightly ahead of and to the left of A1, with A2 between A1 and B2, and as A1 got near the basket, A2 subtly extended his left arm and held B2 so that B2 could not make a play on A1?

No, I don't remember it! :D

Yeah - it was Solid State vs. Whassamatta U. Solid State finally won in the fifth chukker when Whassamattu U. surrendered its queen.

Meds - meds - my kingdom for some meds. :o

I need a smiley that's giving the finger!! :p

Maybe this will help...it was the NCAA Tournament game where there was a 2-on-1 fast break, A1 was dribbling down the middle of the court to the basket, A2 and B2 were slightly ahead of and to the left of A1, with A2 between A1 and B2, and as A1 got near the basket, A2 subtly extended his left arm and held B2 so that B2 could not make a play on A1?

clever response!

I need a smiley that's giving the finger!! :p

Do you mean the one played with two teams and a spherical, brownish-orange ball, where one of the teams scored more points than the other?

That's the one!

You saw it too?

As I recall it was played in March.

You have a better memory than I. I knew it was after February and before April, but I couldn't remember the exact month.

See, Scrapper - you confused the hell out of everybody. A2 and B2 were to the RIGHT of A1 and A2 extended his right foot.

A slightly different scenario:

B2 is guarding A2. B1 is guarding A1. A1 drives past B1. At what point would A2's "boxing out" (really screening) of B2 constitute an illegal screen? What determines that B2 is no longer guarding A2, but is attempting to guard A1? Is this strictly the official's judgment or are there guidelines for this?

I do not have an easy answer for you. I think you just have to see the play enough to know. I will say this, I will and have called fouls when the offensive player or screener starts using their arms and hips to keep them away from the ball handler as they go to the basket. A lot of people allow this to take place without any penalty. I think you have to use your best judgment. You know when the offensive player without the ball is trying to move to give space if you see it enough.

Peace

Don't know if there's any specific guidelines I could point you too, however, the minute A2 moves his position (LGP) while B2 is trying to defend the basket and guard A1 and contacts B2 preventing him from gaurding the person with the ball. That's illegal.

If A2 is running in the same direction as A1, then it's tough to determine but if we don't have a break away layup type situation, the offensive players needs to remain still. I will also offer a couple of other points to consider. If the defender has no possible chance of preventing the score or play, I'm not calling an illegal screen unless of course there is blood or an intentional foul. What has not been discussed here is time and distance. If the offense has gone into their shooting motion and release the ball, and a secondary defender is fouled by a secondary offender (A2), then you can count the bucket and still have a foul on the offense. TC rules would then come into play and you would administer as such.

I don't know that it matters if B2 is "no longer guarding A2". If A2 was managing to screen B2, and then A2 starts to move around B2, and A2 chucks him or bumps him, well, that's illegal,....regardless of whether B2 or B1 is gurading or screening A1 or A2.

If B2 gets into the path of A1 legally before there is contact, then he can draw a charge. If he tries to get into the path and doesn't make it, then it's a block. Same as always.

Regardless of who's guarding or screening whom, you just apply the rules as you've studied them, and that helps you determine who's legal and who's not.

Or am I just misunderstanding the question?

Jurassic, does this reach a new peak of bizarre? I don't know if there could be more obfuscation in 200 words if you said it yourself!!

Lol, I read that a coupla hours ago and it wasn't even worth the usual WTF.

Ols School speaks a strange but oddly beautiful language, one that has not been interpreted into other earthly languages yet. It is only understood by himself and a few other denizens of the planet that he dwells on. The only thing that we know for certain is that his strange language has got absolutely nothing to do with basketball officiating.

Naw, you got 'er right. :)

Do you listen to Car Talk? Are you familiar with the "Andy letter"? Referenced OS post brings the Andy Letter to mind.

There will be abosolutely NO obfuscating on this website. This isn't one of those sites for crying out loud.:D

Or you'll go blind!
http://www.ncaauofficials.com/images/referee_blind.gif

Dude, you should have stopped here.
Really?Oh, we wish you wouldn't. That's because the discussion was "if" a foul could occur on the offense in this situation. It can, so then we could move on to T&D if we want to determine whether an illegal screen is involved. Does not matter if it's a secondary defender or not. Once the shot is released, only an airborne shooter is still considered "offense." Therefore, TC rules would not come into play (when the foul is committed after the shot is released) unless the foul is committed by the airborne shooter.
I'm not sure if you're wrong, unclear, or both.