this is a play that was submitted on hoopsref.com.
the offensive team shoots a shot it hits the rim. defensive team gets the rebound/possession with a new 35. a1 now tries to dribble through defense, and b1 taps the ball away from a1(still team control) a1 then dives on the ball to prevent a tie up and calls for timeout. you grant the time out(20 sec) to team a. after you called the timeout you notice the shotclock is on 25. what would you do.

ps. those of you who have already posted on hoops please do not post.

I would grant the "30 second....not 20 second time out and let Team A have the ball out of bounds.

I am going to go out on a limb and guess that the point of the play was that the ball is still in Team A's backcourt and 10 seconds have elapsed off of the shot clock.

Many collegiate officials use the shot clock as the indicator of when the 10 second violation occurs, going so far as to tell the shot clock operator in pre game to be slow to start and reset since they (the officials) will not be doing an actual count, but looking at the shot clock for the violation indicator. However, by any case book play, the shot clock is not the official indicator as to whether or not a violation has occurred.

Any official who deals with shot clocks will have to admit that way too often the shot clock is not run properly (i.e. by the time the ball is inbounded there are only 33 since it was reset on the make, etc.)

I go by the count that I have.

Crew....this may not be the answer you are looking for, and I do understand your logic...I just don't agree with it. Plus, since I work women's college, we don't care how long they stay in the back court :)

i sataed in the thread that the team got the rebound with a new 35, hence correct start on clock.

shot clock violation.

No shot clock violation. The full 10 sec has not elapsed (or the SC would read 24). Grant the TO and team A will have 10 more sec to cross the division line.

How is this a shot clock violation? We have 25 seconds left to go til we get there.

Coach,

Since the original post stated that the clock reset to 35, I believe that we must go under the assumption that crew was talking about a men's game, and the rules that govern it.

I understand that we are dealing with the men's game, because of the 35 second clock. What I do not understand is how we get a shot clock violation with 25 seconds left on that clock, men's or women's rules.

I say no 10-second violation.
First, the clock may not have been reset perfectly with gaining control.
Second, you go by the count - the clock is not allowed to "reset" the count.
Third, depending on the type of clock, anywhere from 9 to 11 seconds, exclusive, may have gone off the clock.
Fourth, because you looked after the timeout, you have no way of knowing if, for example, you granted timeout at 26 left and one tick ran off the clock.

I understand that some college supervisors say to call the 10 second violation based solely on seeing "25" but I would not do that in this case.

If you worked their conference, you would.

Under NCAA rules, the 10 second count starts when the ball is touched inbounds, not when team control is established. They are instructed to use the shot clock in the NCAA and the NBA. At least this is the way that Joe Forte explained it. 10 second violation.

Bball Ref-

The original post was refering to a missed shot and rebound, therefor you DO NOT have a reset until the rebounding team gains possession. The situation to which you refer, i.e., the shot clock starting when it is touched inbounds, occurs on throw-in situations. See the rules reference below:

2002 NCAA Rules 2-13-5 found on BR-42
"Start the timing device when a player inbounds legally touches or is touched by the ball on a throw-in or WHEN A TEAM INITIALLY GAINS POSSESSION from a jump ball, an unsuccessfl try for goal or a loose ball."

As far as the original question goes...i would grant the 30-SECOND time out and be prepared to explain to the coach, prior to leaving the floor for the half or during the next extended opportunity (maybe a media time-out) why i didn't have a 10-second violation.

"My count was on 9 coach. When the clock shows 25, there is between 25.9 and 25.0 seconds left on the shot clock. Since he called a time out with 25 still showing and MY COUNT was at 9, i have to honor the time out request."

i'd then let the coach get the last little jab in and walk away.

jake

Simplest explaination to me would be to say that the timeout was requested and granted before ten seconds were reached.

Jake,

I guess you need to re-read my post. My reply to Mark had nothing to do with the original post. I was replying to the comment below, which I interpreted as a 10 second count. Otherwise, he wouldn't even be discussing that the supervisor would want a 10 second count.

Again, the answer that I posted came from NBA and former NCAA official Joe Forte. "Under NCAA rules, the 10 second count starts when the ball is touched inbounds, not when team control is established. They are instructed to use the shot clock in the NCAA and the NBA. "

And, if you too tell the coach that your count was at 9, then you and Mark won't be working if the conference supervisor wants to called by the shot clock.

I said the same thing but Joe replied that it doesn't work that way. The shot clock is what works, not your count.

Bball Ref - i understand that you are quoting Joe Forte. i understand that he works in the NBA, but please understand that i am quoting the NCAA RULE BOOK!!

2002 NCAA Rules 2-13-5 found on BR-42
"Start the timing device when a player inbounds legally touches or is touched by the ball on a throw-in or WHEN A TEAM INITIALLY GAINS POSSESSION from a jump ball, an unsuccessfl try for goal or a loose ball."


If the quote you attribute to Mr. Forte is indeed correct - then he is just wrong about the rule. I fully understand the concept of when in Rome and am prepared to officiate a certain way if that is the way my assignor and the coaches expect the game to be called, but YOU HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE that the Rule is different from the quote you attribute to Mr. Forte.

And furthermore, i have REREAD your post and it has everything to do with the original post by Crew. Mark Dexter was answering the original post - SO by responding to Mr. Dexter, you were responding to the original post.

Read the rule. There is NO QUESTION that by the rule, Mark Dexter and myself DO have a leg to stand on. Read the rule.

and i hope everyone has a great and happy holiday season.

jake

Jake, first of all, you must understand that situations often quickly change on this board as people submit an extra "what-if" or other complication. Therefore, TH's post back to me could easily deal with a different situation.

Second, while NCAA rules are important, what your conference supervisor says is just as important if you want to keep working that conference. If I was instructed to use the shot clock to time the 10 second count, I would. I was simply unsure if it applied in this case because of the possible lag time (yes, I know that there is no lag time in an NCAA game, but if no one was thinking of the shot clock, something may have run off) either after the whistle or between time out being granted and the ref blowing his/her whistle.

Once again, I am simply referring to Mark's reply regarding the 10 second count versus the 35 second clock. I could give AFRA about crew or his intial post, as I no longer reply to his posts. I am referring to a throw-in play. Does that sound like the play that crew described in his initial post?

BTW, Joe's response is not in conflict with 2-13-5. That rule simply states when the device is started. It doesn't address anything having to do with the 10 second count. Again, Joe's comments and my reply were both addressing a THROW-IN, since you love to use CAPS.

Good grief! :(

Bball Ref -

I apologize that i misunderstood that you were talking about a throw-in play. since Crew's initial post and Mark D's follow-up had to do with a reset after a missed shot and you didn't specify otherwise, i had to think that you were responding to the initial post, not a throw-in sich.

as far as using all caps, if you can give me any other methods for me to add emphasis to my posts (other than itallics), i'd be more than happy for you to teach me. i mean no offense using caps - it's simply a good way for me to add emphasis.

have a good holiday season.

jake

They're called html tags and they work like this.

Use [ ] with a B between them for bold face. When you end the boldface, use [ / ] with a B.

Use [ ] with a i between them for italics. When you end the boldface, use [ / ] with a i.

Use [ ] with a u between them for underline. When you end the boldface, use [ / ] with a u.

If that's confusing, click on quote and you'll see the tags.

the rule book says you have 10 sec to advance the ball into your frontcourt (not human sec but actual). no one person has a perfect count, that is why the shot clock is more acurate. (this may not be verbatim but you get the picture) in the original post i stated the clock started properly. since 10 seconds have elapsed a violation would be correct, though i see everyones logic to say the clock may have ran after the whistle. in that case adding a sec to the game clock and shotclock would be a correct procedure and also save your rear.

112448 originally posted the following:

"The original post was refering to a missed shot and rebound, therefore you DO NOT have a reset until the rebounding team gains possession. The situation to which you refer, i.e., the shot clock starting when it is touched inbounds, occurs on throw-in situations. See the rules reference below:

2002 NCAA Rules 2-13-5 found on BR-42
"Start the timing device when a player inbounds legally touches or is touched by the ball on a throw-in or WHEN A TEAM INITIALLY GAINS POSSESSION from a jump ball, an unsuccessfl try for goal or a loose ball."

As far as the original question goes...I would grant the 30-SECOND time out and be prepared to explain to the coach, prior to leaving the floor for the half or during the next extended opportunity (maybe a media time-out) why I didn't have a 10-second violation.

"My count was on 9 coach. When the clock shows 25, there is between 25.9 and 25.0 seconds left on the shot clock. Since he called a time out with 25 still showing and MY COUNT was at 9, I have to honor the time out request."

I'd then let the coach get the last little jab in and walk away."


Crew later posted the following:

"The rule book says you have 10 sec to advance the ball into your frontcourt (not human sec but actual). No one person has a perfect count, that is why the shot clock is more acurate. (This may not be verbatim but you get the picture.) In the original post I stated the clock started properly. Since 10 seconds have elapsed a violation would be correct, though iIsee everyone's logic to say the clock may have ran after the whistle. In that case adding a sec to the game clock and shotclock would be a correct procedure and also save your rear."


While the original posting concerns the shot clock in a men's game, the correct ruling would also apply to the shot clock in a women's game (there is no ten second count in the women's game but five second counts could complicate the shot clock situation), and the game clock situation in both NCAA Men's & Women's and NFHS games.

Crew is incorrect when he states that the ten second count is not a human count but a clock ("actual" is the word that he used) count. NCAA R2-S8-A8(Men), A9(Women), and NFHS R2-S7-A9 state that the officials shall silently and visibly count seconds to administer the throw-in, free throw (high school only), backcourt and closely guarded rules.

Both rules codes are clear that the official's visible count that governs. While Crew is correct when he states that no official has a prefectly timed count, the visible count is the correct count.

112448's posting about how to handle the situation is about as good as an official can handle it. NFHS Casebook Plays 5.10.1B, C, D & E and 5.10.2 can lend some insight into the play that was posted.

I do have a personal observation about calling a ten second violation when a game/shot clock is involved: make sure that at least ten seconds has elapsed on the game/shot clock. It just makes officiating easier.

But more importantly, officiating supervisors do not have the authority to tell officials to use the shot clock to administer the ten second rule. The rules do not allow it and officiating supervisors are wrong to give officials directives that are not in compliance with the rules.

test

thanks for the help bball ref. no more all caps for me, unless i really am yelling!!



jake

Whether they have the authority or not, when I get up to doing their conferences, I'm going to administer the 10 second count however they want it done!

i am just taking good advice from a great nc2a official. 10 seconds is 10 seconds. dont get caught up in the human count, its not believable. back yourself with factual info that is more reliable and consistent. one officials count maybe faster than your own or slower, we want to give both ends of the floor the same shake. consistency!

;)

Mark, just wanted to clear something up with you about the shot clock. When the shot clock reads 35 it is on 35 from 35.0 to 34.1. For example, the shot clock does not start on 35.9 every time we get a new shot clock. When the shot clock reads 25 it is on 25 from 25.0 until 24.1. When the shot clock is on 1 it is on 1 from 1.0 to 0.1. When the shot clock reads 0 it is on 0. According to what you stated earlier than if the shot clock is at 0 than it could actually be at 0.9 which is not true because the horn sounds at 0. I used to not be sure about this as well but it was made clear to me my first year in the CBA. This is a tough play crew brought up. If you are sure the timeout was before the shot clock hit 25 I would put 26 on the shot clock and add one to the game clock which I have actually done before. If you don't then the coach, players, and others will not understand how 10 seconds could elapse but no ten second call is made. If you are not sure I would call the ten second violation here. You are totally backed up by the shot clock. Of course, I am assuming as Crew stated, that the shot clock started correctly. Mark, how do you quote just a sentence or two without quoting the entire posting? That's what I wanted to do in this case.

Eli, just click on quote and then highlight and delete everything you don't want.

Eli, have you worked or are you scheduled for a game in Fayetteville with the Patriots? I'd love to watch you work some night.

BasketballRef, I tried to shoot you a personal e-mail. Let me know if you didn't get it.

I (obviously) can't speak for the CBA, but NCAA 2-13.8 states, "When the shot clock indicates 0:00 but the horn has not sounded, time has not expired." I read that to mean that there is between 0.1 and 0.9 when the clock reads 0. In fact, I saw this on TV during some game over the past week or so.

The rule is different in the NBA, and therefore, CBA, WNBA, and NBDL, I would think.

Rule 7, Section II
g. If the 24-second clock reads 0, a 24-second violation has occurred, even though the horn may not have sounded.

An interesting difference. I can't imagine that the actual shot clocks are any different but the rules definitely are.

I (obviously) can't speak for the CBA, but NCAA 2-13.8 states, "When the shot clock indicates 0:00 but the horn has not sounded, time has not expired." I read that to mean that there is between 0.1 and 0.9 when the clock reads 0. In fact, I saw this on TV during some game over the past week or so. [/B][/QUOTE]

Bob, good point, my understanding was that the modern clocks have a horn at 0 and that the clock does not stay at 0 for 0.9 seconds. I certainly have never seen a clock in a college game that stays on 0 for almost a full second before the horn goes off. However, I am sure if the clock is not perfectly synchronized with the horn there could be a .1 or .2 difference between the horn and 0, which is probably what you saw in the TV game. I do remember a high school gym where I used to work a lot where the clock stayed at 0 a full second before the horn went off. This was a very old clock. The clock operator would actually always tell the officials this so it would not surprise them.

Eli -

thanks a ton for the clarification on the clock situation and the advice to put one back on the shot and game clocks if you are very comfortable knowing your count was at 9.

Jake

I believe that crew mis heard what was said to him by these college refs. At the various camps that I have go to, they say that if the shoot clock is at 24, then you must have a 10 second violation. The reasoning is that 25 is anywhere from 25.1 to 25.9, and that is not a full 10 seconds since you start at 35.0. This is from 3 different Division 1 assignors.

Do the math. It doesn't work.
 

Based on the post from Eli and the experience that I've had, I would have to disagree. Using the information above, a team would have 35.9 seconds to shoot. If the clock has anywhere from 25.1 to 25.9 when it'a showing 25 then it would have anywhere from 35.9 to 35.1 when 35 is showing. We know that's not true.

Pasted below is part of Eli's reply that correctly explains how a shot clock works.

3 different D1 assignors can be wrong.

BktBallRef, you didn't read my post all of the way. I stated in it that the shoot clock starts at 35.0 and goes down from there. so like I said, and the D1 assignors have said, if the clock shows 24 then you have a 10 second violation. NOT when the clock shows 25.

Dennis, look at what you stated and how it would apply to other times.

You said that when the clock read 25, there's actually 25.1 to 25.9 seconds on the clock.

If that's true, then when the clock reads 35, there would have to be 35.1 to 35.9 seconds on the clock.

Also, if there's 25.1 to 25.9 on the clock, what does the clock show when they're are actually 25.0 seconds on the clock? You're saying that the clock shows 26 when there's 26.0 on the clock but it shows 24 when there's actually 25.0 on the clock. That doesn't make sense.

These clocks aren't soley 35 second clocks. The clock registers the time the same at 35 as it does at 25. If the clock is at 35.0 seconds when it's displaying 35, then it's at 25.0 seconds when it's displaying 25. It can't work any other way. The only way it can work is the way Eli stated.

The clock stays at 35 until it ticks down to 34.1, then it ticks to 34.0 and the display shows 34. It's that simple.

BTW, NBA officials call an 8 seconds BC violation at 16 seconds, not 15 seconds. The clocks are the same as the college shot clocks.

Tony is right on this one, Dennis. If it was the way you state it, as soon as someone starts the 35 sec clock, it would immediately read 34. It takes a second for this to occur. Also, when the clock reads zero, it does not take .99 seconds for the horn to blow - it may have a slight delay due to the equipment, but it is not a full second. I am not sure on the rule, but I believe that ball in hand with clock reading zero is violation, so 0 seconds is considered 0.0, not 0.9 seconds.

No. In NF and NCAA rules, if any sort of timing device shows 0.0 or 0 and there has been no horn (assuming the horn is working correctly), that time period has NOT ended.

In NBA, if shot clock shows 0 or game shows (or is left with after mandated deductions) 0.0, that period is over.

While it's true that it's not a shot clock violation until the horn sounds, that doesn't mean that the clock isn't at 0.0.

Did I say that? Man, I must really be losing it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach No. In NF and NCAA rules, if any sort of timing device shows 0.0 or 0 and there has been no horn (assuming the horn is working correctly), that time period has NOT ended. In NBA, if shot clock shows 0 or game shows (or is left with after mandated deductions) 0.0, that period is over.

Thanks Mark - I knew that was true for NF and thought it was true for NCAA with game clock - wasn't sure about shot clocks.

No, you made a good point. I was just clarifying.

Re: Do the math. It doesn't work.
 

Tony -- that would be true if the clock "Ran down" to 35 seconds (indicated). But, when it's SET to 35 seconds, it's set to exactly 35.0.

Look at the game clock, for example, and look at minutes and seconds, instead of seconds and tenths. It's set to 8:00. It "immediately" changes to 7:59. When it gets to 4:xx, it doesn't mean 4 minutes have elapsed -- just the contrary, it means that 4 minutes haven't yet elapsed. IF the seconds weren't displayed, we couldn't have a "4 minute violation" until the clock read 3.

(We need someone to test all this out with a shot clock -- and it's possible that different brands / models work differently -- I know that game clocks do. We need to start it and stop it as quickly as possible -- did it stay at 35, or change to 34? Counting down with the clock, does the horn sound as soon as we get to 0, or does the horn wait until we get to -1?)

Re: Re: Do the math. It doesn't work.
 

Bob, that's exactly my point. I'm simply pointing out how the clock would work if it worked as Dennis stated.

If the shot clock is at 35.0 when 35 is displayed, then it's at 25.0 when 25 is displayed. That's simply common sense and it's consistent. It doesn't make sense to say the clock is at 35.0 when 35 is displayed but it's not at 25.0 until 24 is displayed. This is what Dennis is saying when he says the clock is at 25.1 to 25.9 when it displays 25.

Exactly, but game clocks work differently than shot clocks. Most game clocks now have tenths. So, when the clock says 8:00, it's actually at 8:00.0. Shot clocks don't reflect tenths.

Quote:

(We need someone to test all this out with a shot clock -- and it's possible that different brands / models work differently -- I know that game clocks do. We need to start it and stop it as quickly as possible -- did it stay at 35, or change to 34? Counting down with the clock, does the horn sound as soon as we get to 0, or does the horn wait until we get to -1?)

I have. Last year, at a girls' AAU tourney, which uses NCAA Women's rules, we tested a Daktronics shot clock and a Fair-Play shot clock. In both cases, when the clocks were started, one second passed before the clock ticked down from 30 to 29. Also, as soon as the clock reached 0, the horn sounded.

I hope that helps clear it up.

If we can get this settled we can then decide if 2000 or 2001 is the first year of the millenium.

That's an easy one - 2001; Q.E.D.

THis is what I am saying ..... if the clock reads 25 on the shoot clock, we don't know if that is 25.9 or 25.0. That is why you wait for the clock to read 24. Now you know for sure that 10 seconds have run off the clock. This is not that hard. Since the clock starts at 35.0 then 25.1 is not 10 seconds.

True, 25.1 is not 10 seconds, but what most people have been trying to say is that at 25.1, the clock would display 26.

Consider this. You start the clock displayed at 35. It takes a second to switch to 34, so there must have been some time elapsed before 34 seconds. Here is what the clock shows, and what the actual time could be:

35/35.0 --> 34.1
34/34.0 --> 33.1
33/33.0 --> 32.1
(etc, etc)
26/26.0 --> 25.1
25/25.0 --> 24.1
(etc, etc)
03/3.0 --> 2.1
02/2.0 --> 1.1
01/1.0 --> 0.1
00/0.0 ------------>

This is somewhat the opposite of when the game clock ticks down with tenths, and the people shout "FIVE" when the clock is really near six (5.9) and then wonder where the horn is at 0.9.

Exactly correct. This is how a shot clock works.