Goaltending/BI in high school vs. college
 

A little embarassed to admit that I don't know the rule on this one, but I thought this would be the best place to go to find out...
My question is...Is it legal according to NCAA rules block a shot and pin it against the backboard if it has already hit the backboard if the ball is still below the height of the rim? I tried searching through the NCAA rule book on this one. I know we would automatically count the bucket if this play happened in a high school game, but I was not sure about college. In discussing this play with others, I heard conflicting opinions. Thanks in advance for your help.

This is the NCAA INTERP: I believe NFHS maybe similiar.

The violation called basket interference applies in the following situations:
(1) during either a free throw or an attempt for a field goal; (2) whenever
the ball is touched on, in or above the basket, or (3) when the ball is
touched while it is above the ring and while any part of the ball is within
the cylinder.

Goaltending applies (1) during a try for a field goal or free throw, or (2)
when a tapped ball is in flight toward the tapper’s basket. The ball may not
be touched while it is on its downward flight during a try for field goal while
any part of the ball is above ring level and has the possibility of entering
the basket.

Under both NCAA and NFHS rules, it is legal to touch the ball on a shot <b>after</b> the ball has touched the backboard as long as the ball is still on the way <b>up</b>. Iow, it's a judgment call.

Board--> touch on way up---> legal.

Board-->touch on way down---> illegal.

Forget about the height of the rim. That's irrelevant under the rules.

And no, you wouldn't automatically count the basket under high school rules either. Both NCAA and NFHS rules are the same.

The GT/BI rule is exactly the same at both levels. And you would not count a basket for pinning the ball against the backboard at either level. Not sure where you got that idea from. BTW, the ball must be completely above the rim in order to have GT, with a chance to go in and on its downward spiral. If either one of these 3 things I listed are not present, you cannot have GT at all.

Peace

I believe the confusion maybe with the NBA rule. Unless the rule has changed, it's illegal in the NBA.

If it still has a chance to go in. If it's a wild shot that has no chance, it's technically not GT. That's a judgment call, obviously.

Let me get this straight. Dinosaur, you're saying that if the ball goes up, misses, starts down and gets below the rim, it's still illegal to pin it against the backboard? Do I misunderstand?

Hold the phone! I got goaltending here. I have never ever seen a case where it wasn't called a score when the ball hit the backbroad first. I'm not quite sure I'm going there. I'm not splittng the difference between if the ball is still going up after it hits the b/b. Once it hits the b/b, defenders should know to leave it along.

Count the bucket!

I actually saw this happen at a recent camp. The ball hit the bottom of the b/b and was probably going to still go in. Defender blocked it, we all got GT. Clinician, coaches didn't say a word. I was Lead and I saw the ball hit the b/b but slightly below the rim, and thought to myself is that a GT? Next thing I know we got whistles coming from everywhere, count the bucket. From C and Trail, that's going to be hard to pickup if it's below the rim and it's still going up after it hit the b/b. The way they want us to make this call, the C and T has primary and at best (game speed with other things to watch) they are good to determine if it even hit the b/b and if it did, I got GT. From lead you have a better view, provided it's on your side, but you're not responsible for that call. I'm not going there and I'm not splitting hairs here. Players should know that if the ball hits the b/b, 9.99999 times out of 10 it's going to be a GT. Take your chances if you want but don't get mad if it don't go your way.

I'm not the one that is the expert on GT, since I don't do a lot of boys' games. I mean, I'm not the one that pretends to be an expert on GT

But I'm pretty sure that the penalty for GT isn't to count the bucket, even if the ball goes in. The ball is dead when the infraction is committed, and the penalty is to award 2 points (or 3 under certain circs).

Sigh....it just <b>never</b> stops.

No, JMO, it is not necessarily GT if the ball is touched after it has hit the board. That is NBA and rec league rules <b>ONLY</b>. Find somebody with a rulebook--NCAA or NFHS, they're both the same-- and get them to read you the definition of GT or BI.

Or alternatively you can get someone to explain the posts above in this thread.

If you don't know the damn rules, don't comment on them. All you're doing is confusing the non-officials(like yourself) reading this forum.

Lah-freaking-me.......

I'm 99% certain that a similar play happened in the NCAA tournament last year and the play was correctly allowed to stand.

[QUOTE=Old School]Hold the phone! I got goaltending here. I have never ever seen a case where it wasn't called a score when the ball hit the backbroad first. I'm not quite sure I'm going there. I'm not splittng the difference between if the ball is still going up after it hits the b/b. [Quote=Old School]

Why wouldn't you split that difference? That's what the rule about GT says - the ball MUST be on it's downward flight.


Why? Why should they leave it alone? Just because it hit the backboard? Wrong rule set here, pal...

They should leave it along because the risk of the official calling it a GT is very very likely. We're talking a spilt second here, was or wasn't? If I'm not sure, but I am sure you cobber it off the b/b, we're going the other way, count the bucket. That's a tough call to get and you don't want to miss an obvious GT. Even from the Lead position where I was, I still was unsure if the ball had started it's downward fly or not, very close. One thing I was sure about is the defender hit it after it hit the b/b. One of the tough things about being an official, we don't get the benefit of instant replay. Maybe that will change in the future but we're not there yet which means you need to rely on your judgment. It's a judgement call and sometimes we're going to get it wrong. But you know what, if you're going to go for the .000001 time that you got there b4 the downward flight. Then so be it. I still sleep good at night.

Oh, and Rainmaker, please define for me what is the difference between counting the bucket 2 or 3, or awarding the bucket, 2 or 3?

Newsflash for you JR, people are not perfect and guess what? Officials are people. One more thing, what did you do to my San Antonio Spurs tread? :confused:

More proof you aren't an official.

The rule of thumb is if you aren't sure you DON'T CALL IT!

Who cares? Touching the ball AFTER it hits the backboard is NOT goaltending, it's not BI...it's nothing. The reason no one at this "camp" said anything about the call is probably because it was so close - to the observers it probably looked like the ball was on it's downward flight...I can guarantee you that - if this was any kind of legitimate HS or NCAA camp - their not saying anything about the call had NOTHING to do with the fact that the ball had hit the backboard...again, that is not in the NFHS or NCAA rule sets...

You're viewing this one dimensional, but we have another level here. Fact, the ball did hit the b/b first, fact, the defender touched the ball afterwards. I've been doing this way too long for you to trip me up this way. I can argue and support the fact that the ball was hit after it hit the b/b. Now, I'm not splitting the atom today. If you want someone with that type of precision then you don't want humans to referee the games, you want a computer.

Bottom line, if he blocks that shot b4 it hits the b/b, good! After, bad! I'm not a gambling man but I do occassionally dabble when the odds are in my favor. The odds are in my favor that plays like this will be a GT more so then a good block.

The difference between counting the bucket, or awarding points? Sorry, if you can't see the difference clearly, I'm not the one to explain it. In the past, my explanations to you haven't been very helpful.

This pretty much sums it all up does it not? :D

Peace

Fact, both of these facts are irrelevant to whether it's GT or not. But, it's a rule thing, so we don't really expect you to get it.
I still think you're smarter than this....

There is no gambling about it, it isn't playing the odds...it's knowing the darn rule and being good enough at what you do to see it, process it and make the judgment was it or wasn't it.

Obviously you don't know the rule...or even worse choose to ignore it...and you aren't good enough to just make the correct call based on what happened.

NFHS BI GT Myths
 

A player cannot touch the ball, ring, or net while the ball is on the ring or within the basket. A player cannot touch the ball if it is in the imaginary cylinder above the ring. These are examples of basket interference. It is legal to touch the ring or the net if the ball is above the ring and not touching the ring, even if the ball is in the imaginary cylinder above the ring. It is legal to hang on the ring if a player is avoiding an injury to himself or herself or another player.

The backboard has nothing to do with goaltending. Goaltending is contacting the ball on its downward flight, above the level of the rim, with a chance to go in. On most layups, the ball is going up after it contacts the backboard. It is legal to pin the ball against the backboard if it still on the way up and not in the imaginary cylinder above the basket. Slapping the backboard is neither basket interference nor is it goaltending and points cannot be awarded. A player who strikes a backboard so forcefully that it cannot be ignored because it is an attempt to draw attention to the player, or a means of venting frustration, may be assessed a technical foul. When a player simply attempts to block a shot and accidentally slaps the backboard it is neither a violation nor is it a technical foul.

Wrong.<i></i>

Bottom line, JMO, you don't have a clue what the rule is or how the play should be called. As usual. You also still have that McGriff knack of getting everybody upset with you though. That's the mark of a consummate troll.

Bottom line: The forum should block Old School both before and after he contacts the board. :eek:

Oooo, a post that could be in this thread, or the pun thread! I like it!

Just a quick question, don't lose too much sleep thinking about it. You fans and coaches can clime in on this too. How many times have you seen the ball hit the b/b and later slapped by the defender and it not be called a GT? How many times?

Trapping the ball against the b/b is not the same thing. The ball clearly hit the b/b first and then it was block. My math is something like 9.999999 times out of ten. With that kind of results we can draw some meaningful conclusions. Understand, it is not a perfect 10, so in the .000001 percent of the time the ball actually hit the b/b and is still going up. I'll take that hit. If the margin of errors in my games is .000001 percent of the time. I'll take that. Now go ahead and show us all how anal you are about the details of the rules. And don't worry so much about me giving out bad information because I think that to the degree that you like to push things on this forum and in this profession. You will scare away any young intelligent mind, thinking about making this a career.

Don't get me wrong, I understand it's legal for the ball to hit the b/b and still be going up, and not be a GT. I just don't think in the heat of battle I will be able to distinguish within a split-second that it will take me to rule on the play, if the ball was still going up or not afterwards, plus when I consider the numerical odds of it actually happening, well, you make the call and I hope you're right because if you are wrong. Would it be worth the gamble?

Have a nice evening....

I'm not sure I understand what your point is, and how you're trying to make that point. Or to be less polite, is this supposed to be a rational, logical contribution to the discussion? Because I have no clue what you are talking about.

I think he is trying to debate the mathematical equation rather than admitting he does not know the rule. He did not even realize the rule was exactly the same at the HS and college levels, which for most experienced officials or officials that claim they work HS ball would know. Also if you are looking for an intelligent and cordial conversation, you are looking at the wrong person. Part of having an intelligent conversation requires you have knowledge of the topic.

Peace

I think you can.
I think you can.
I think you can.
:)

Sort of...

The player should still charged with basket interference if they are grasping the rim when the ball is on or in the basket. Protection from inury only eliminates the technical foul.

I had it happen tonight in a HS summer league game...kid went up from my side as trail (2 whistle), got fouled ball hit the backboard just above the pad going up and a second defender blocked it.

So I called a foul, had the coach yelling for a GT because it hit the backboard, to which I calmly said, "It was still going up." He said, "Yeah it was but it hit the backboard."

You see unlike you, I know the rules, have the ability to see the whole play, and GET THE FREAKING CALL RIGHT!

And I have seen and called it correctly numerous times...but then again, it is probably a really rare occurrence in those mens D leagues you do.

Also, for what it's worth, on lay-ups the ball is usually still going up immediately after it strikes the backboard, it's very rare for a player to lay it in high enough for it to go immediately downward. Players shooting at that height aren't using the backboard, they are dunking it.

1) Good officials recognize it and don't call it. As Bob Jenkins said, one instance would be in the NCAA tournament last year.

3)Stoopid question. How many times do you see "traveling"? Who counts?:rolleyes:

3) No, you didn't know it was legal until you you got corrected by <b>everybody</b> after your post #8 of this thread. As usual, you didn't have a clue what the actual rule was. I do agree though that <b>you</b> will be <b>unable</b> to distinguish what is happening in the heat of battle and make the right call. I don't expect the average fanboy in the fifth row to be able the make that call either. I do expect that a fairly competent, experienced official will know the rule and make the correct call. That's why they're officials and you're not.

If you and everybody else is upset about this. Then you and everybody else needs to get a life. Seriously!

Whatever! Glad you got it right though....keep up the good work

:(

Clueless.

Every time it actually occurs.

Don't lose any sleep over this, JMO. It's not likely to happen in any of your elementary rec games.

This probably happened at the NBA camp he attended last year, so maybe it was the right call afterall. He has said that he does college ball, so maybe he does the NBA too. :D

http://www.forumspile.com/Go-Away-Toilet_flush.jpg
Seriously.

Time to lock another thread. JMO, the McGriff-Killer, turns another no-brainer 4-post thread into 40.

Sometimes, I have no clue what you are taking about, but as far as locking threads. I think you are more so to blame then me for that, and what did you do to my San Antonio Spurs thread?

The fact that there's 40 posts is a good thing. Some of us are discussing and sharing information. You know, not all of us are perfect so when you guys are not posting insulting remarks, we actually are able to have some decent dialog. Getting you to take a break with the insults is tough. You must live a pretty dull life if you get upset about every comment someone makes.

And how often is that?

Watch a few D-1 games and you'll see several.

What difference does it make how often it occurs??? The fact remains that touching the ball after it hits the backboard is not a violation under NFHS or NCAA rule sets. You were wrong when you said it was goaltending, and you are wrong to try to base your argument on the fact that it happens rarely therefore you will all it a violation...that makes absolutely no sense.

Like I said, I saw it just last night.

I see it several times a season in games I do.

I see it in games I watch...in fact I saw a replay of the Lake Osewega/Mater Dei boys HS game on just a couple of nights ago and they had it there. The shot hit the board going up, it got touched, came down and was on the rim where an offensive player touched it. So we had a correct no-call on the block and a correct call on the offensive BI...of course the stupid guy calling the game said it was a GT before the GT on the offense...do you call HS games on TV?:rolleyes:

Yup, some of us are. Unfortunately, JMO, you're not one of that group. You're the troll over in the corner that doesn't understand very basic rules, doesn't understand what we're talking about, and doesn't own the appropriate rules and mechanics books to try and figure out what we are talking about. This particular thread is just another example of that.
http://www.forumspile.com/Post-Crap-Only_you.jpg
Smokey the Bear has <b>you</b> figured out!

Happened twice that I recall in D-I tourney games I was watching this year.

Nuff. <iiiii>