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Coach wants a timeout...
...after the first free throw. He tells you before the first free throw is administered (while you're reporting the foul). Do you give it to him as soon as the first free throw is finished or do you make him ask for it again?
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I always tell them to request the timeout at the proper time or when they want it called. I do that so that if they change their mind it is not on me. I have yet to have a coach not understand or get mad because I did not give them a "pre-determined" timeout.
Peace |
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I agree with the others. I'll say OK coach, but I'll look at you after the first to make sure. Then I do that and if they still want it, grant the TO.
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With that being said, is it correct procedure to grant a pre-determined TO in the following situations?
a> after a team scores, the throw-in teams coach says give me a time out when we cross half court. b> after a dead ball the defensive teams coach says if they score give me a time out? Or should we have them request again? Personally, knowing in advance on those type of situations makes managing the game easier. It’s nothing like granting a time out when coach really called the play “five out” or you didn’t hear coach requesting at all because of the crowd noise. |
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Rule 5-8-3. |
Yep, I guess the key words are granted only when...
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The only thing that should be "easier" is that you now know the coach wants the TO, but you shouldn't cop out by granting it early. |
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I understand your point, but I also do not know for sure that because there is no provision mentioned, it is not allowed. I'm just not convinced that it's not something that is allowed. I agree that it's poor procedure and, as JRut pointed out, can lead to confusion and therefore shouldn't be used, but I'm not really willing to concede - for the sake of argument - that it's illegal per se. |
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Peace |
I ask the coach to speak to the scorekeeper. Once the free throw has been taken, the scorekeeper will then sound the horn, at which point the timeout shall be granted.
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Peace |
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What's your point? That's exactly what we've been discussing.....whether to <b>grant</b> a TO request or not. They can request a TO during the pre-game warm-up also, but we've also got a rule that says they ain't gonna get that request granted either. Rule 5-8-3 lists the <b>ONLY</b> times that you can grant a TO request. If you grant one at any other time, you've screwed up. |
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The rules do NOT specify when a timeout may be reuqested, only when one may or may not be granted. Based on that assumption and setting aside JRut's "word to the wise" interpretation for a moment, I'm suggesting that there is nothing in the rule book which indicates that it is illegal or inappropriate for a coach to request a timeout which is granted at a later time. You said it is incorrect procedure. While I agree with JRut's "word to the wise" interpretation, from a strict constructionist point of view, I can see nothing incorrect about this procedure. |
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What do you tell him? |
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TO requests can <b>ONLY</b> be <b>GRANTED</b> as per rule 5-8-3. Pre-requests cannot be granted later, by that very specific rule. Are you saying that the <b>rules</b> will allow you to grant a TO at any time other than when that TO request is made? If so, you are completely wrong. |
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Only by applying "common sense" do you come to your conclusion, not by application of the wording of the rule. I'm merely pointing out that a) either the rule needs a bit of tightening up in this regard or b) it's not entirely true to suggest that my OP is procedurally incorrect. |
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If you can find me verbage within the rule that suggests otherwise, I'd love to see it. But I've looked, and I can't find it. |
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<u><b>NFHS Rule 4-8-3:</b></u> <i>Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official <b>GRANTS</b> a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted <b>ONLY</b> when: a) The ball is in control of or at the disposal of of a player or his team. b) The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is available or required.</i> It's not "common sense". The <b>rule</b> lays out exactly when you can grant a TO request, and "sometime in the future" isn't part of what's laid out in that rule. The problem isn't with the way the rule is written. The problem is with people not understanding what the rule is saying. |
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Again, the rule lays out when you can grant a TO request. And that is: a) player or team control or b) dead ball. It says NOTHING about the interval of time between the request and the granting. NOTHING. :) |
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See post #20 that I made at 2.28pm today. In that, I said that it doesn't matter one damn bit <b>WHEN</b> a TO is requested. The <b>rules</b> however state exactly <b>when</b> an official can grant a TO request. The only time that you can grant a legal TO request is at the time that is being requested. That's what 5-8-3 is telling you. If the play stops 3 minutes from now and there is no TO request made, howinthehell can you grant one?:confused: If you and DC want to believe otherwise, hey, then feel free to do so. Of course, you probably should bear in mind that you have absolutely no rules backing to do what you want to do, but don't let something like that stop either of you from doing so. I'm done repeating myself on this one. |
Jurassic could you break this down for me one last time :D j/k
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Let me add another wrinkle - let's say the team has already used their TO allotment. Since you are granting the request, do you also assess the T for requesting an excessive TO? |
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At some point it becomes a complete waste of time to argue something. That's where this thread is at. If you don't agree with something posted on this forum, the easiest thing to do is to take it to your Association rules interpreter or, even better, somebody from your applicable state rules governing body. I suggest that would be the best course of action for DC_12 to follow. Hopefully he will check back in here with his answer. If you don't agree with those sources, you're in the wrong bidness. Btw, this particular situation has come up several times before on this forum. Surprise, surprise.... |
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There are many cases in which a coach could tell you he wants a TO at _________. (fill in the blank). IMHO, it's best to not grant all requests for a time into the future, because then you have less to worry about, and are backed up by using the rule book. You are not there to coach - you are there to referee. A coach's job is to request a TO when he wants one. |
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I was doing a provincial final one year when a coach yelled out "five out". When the team didn't respond, he yelled it again. I gave him the TO. After the game, the evaluator, in his own way, gave the coach sh!t for having a play called "five out". As fro crowd noise, visual requests are valid requests. Sound doesn't interfere with light. ;) |
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Canadian Reply
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Bottom line is this (to all, not just you): a request can be made at any time. It's up to the official to either grant or not grant the request. The official uses the rule to determine if s/he should grant the TO. There are four possibilities in the 2x2 matrix:
If a coach requests a TO, and just after the request, his player loses player control of the ball, an opponent steals the ball and is on a breakaway for a game winning basket in the state championship with the B player likely to get a full scholarship to (insert your favourite NCAA team), the TO request shall be granted. A good official will have his whistle as soon as s/he can, and not care what happens to the B player and the breakaway. |
American Reply
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Bottom line is this (to all, not just you): a request can be made at any time. It's up to the official to either grant or not grant the request. The official uses the rule to determine if s/he should grant the TO. There are four possibilities in the 2x2 matrix:
If a coach requests a TO, and just after the request, his player loses player control of the ball, an opponent steals the ball and is on a breakaway for a game winning basket in the state championship with the B player likely to get a full scholarship to (insert your favorite NCAA team), the TO request shall be granted. A good official will have his whistle as soon as s/he can, and not care what happens to the B player and the breakaway. |
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The only upside is that I get to take more meds. :) |
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FWIW, I've never pre requested a TO before, but I have told the official (when he is reporting a foul) that I will be requesting one if B1 misses the FT and we secure the rebound. I have also "heads up'ed" an official when we were going to run an "funny looking play". Never had a problem with either. |
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You can't have it all ways. |
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The first difference is the rule says one request gets one grant. You cannot have 1 request that gets granted at multiple times, as this coach is expecting. So if he had said I want a TO the first time the inbounds count gets to 4 we have a different story, leading to the second difference This is a stupid tactic by the coach. The first time the count gets to 4 on an inbound play he could be up by 1 with 4 seconds left and no time outs left. Why would a coach open himself up to a T by pre-requesting a TO in this sitch? Finally, if the coach makes this request before the game I cannot legally grant it, since timeouts cannot be granted prior to the ball becoming live. A little more seriously, if you're standing by the bench on the second FT and he gets up to request a TO on the make just give it to him. If his guard is slowly bringing the ball up the backcourt without pressure and he gets up to request a TO when he gets to halfcourt just give it to him. If you don't trust the coach or you're the nervous type look at him again before blowing the whistle. If anything funny, unexpected or different happens between these pre-requests and the granting of the timeout then don't grant it. It's really not that hard. |
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I really could give a damn less what you think, to be brutally honest. We've gone over this particular play before several times here. I've also taken the time to check it out further, also before. So......how you or anybody else outside my particular area wants to call this play is completely irrelevant to me personally. No one is saying that you <b>have</b> to call this play any particular way. All that is being said is that, in <b>our</b> opinion, your particular stance is completely and equivocably wrong, rules-wise and practice-wise. Don't let that influence you though. Hey, what difference does it really make really if no one in this thread agrees with you? Just keep calling what you want to call. Who cares? Shrug. |
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If so....silly monkey. Shrug. |
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But he's also right this time. You're trying to read something into the rules that isn't there. The TO is requested (by player or coach), and the official can then grant it if it is allowed by rules, or ignore it if the request is not allowable. If a coach asks me, "Can I have a TO if he makes this FT?", I tell them, "Sure, but just verify it with me when he makes it". There is no set rule as to how the request is to be made, so if I know the coach will want a TO in a particular situation, and they give me some sort of acknowledgment, (nod, wink, "T" signal with the hands, whatever), I consider that the request. It's not much different than when a team goes on that 8-0 run, you start watching that other coach because there's probably a good chance they'll want a TO. Then, when they give you the nod, or mouth "time out", or whatever they do, you'll be ready to grant the request at that time. |
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When I was coaching in these situations I would inform the official that I would be requesting a time-out if there was a made basket so that if the ball went in they would have a heads-up and be waiting for my request. Same with the other situation. It seemed to work well
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...sounds like a good name for a bar band, or a drink, or something. Or a game show! That's it! "Howie"...slams down the little plastic box thingy..."I'm bitter AND confused!!" |
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Or, "Dazed and Confused" - Led Zeppelin, approximately 1969. (That's somewhere around JR's 30-yr. officiating anniversary date, isn't it?) |
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Then you can add "broke and horny"....... And you end up with.....wait for it.....Bitter, Confused, Broke, Horny, Dopey, Sneezy and Chuck |
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Coming from a different background in terms of rules, it was interesting to follow this discussion, particularly after the actual rule was posted.
IMO, the rule implies that the request has to be made at the appropriate time because there is no requirement for the officials to keep track of and administer pre-requests. In essence, the rule is "coach asks, referee grants if appropriate", not "coach asks, referee grants when the opportunity comes". Giving heads up on an upcoming request is a different case altogether, obviously. Cheers. |
I think common sense should be the rule of order here. If I'm in a loud gym and I'm standing next to the coach in the C position, and the player shoots a 3-pt attempt and the coach says in my ear, if that shot goes in, give me a timeout. That's easy for me, that's the exact way I prefer it. Shot goes in, beep, timeout!
Trail position on the 2nd FT attempt, coachs says if it goes in give me a TO. I say full or 30, he says full. Shot goes in, beep, TO, Full! Now, in the event the coach changes his mind, which I will say has never happened, before I go any further. Beep, inadvertent whistle, no subs can enter, put the ball back in play. If he doesn't have a TO, he just bought one. Simple, simple, simple. JR just has to be right but I don't think we need to do anything to the rulebook here. Now I consider granting that timeout, at that point in time a good working relationship with me and the coach. He doesn't have to scream, jump up and down trying to get the TO called after the made bucket, and he knows I'm listening to him. This has always been a positive interaction point for me and yes, I prefer the TO's come to me this way. You better not grant a coach a TO if you are at 4 in a closely guarded count, and he requested it early. That's cheating! I would tell the coach no way in that situation. After a made bucket, not a big deal, grant the TO request. Life goes on. |
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The situation where the coach "changes his mind" - if he has TOs left, you do nothing, but if he doesn't have TOs left, you T him up?????? How about you charge him the timeout in BOTH situations (seeing that, in both, you stopped the clock to grant his timeout request). This is the perfect illustration of why you should NOT even entertain requests for future timeouts - if the coach tries to weasel his way out of one, what are you going to do? And not allowing subs? Unless you're doing an NCAA game and you're in the last 59.9 seconds of the game, subs can come in on ANY whistle (NFHS/NCAA). Period. |
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1) he doesn't know the rules. 2) he doesn't own a rulebook. 3) he makes up his own rules. |
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A wise man once said; concentrate on things that might happen, and not on things that might not. |
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Now here's a good one for you. 5 seconds remaining in the game, NFHS, team A down by 1 after just scoring. Team A coach requests TO that he doesn't have. You grant TO stopping the clock with 4 seconds left. Access TF to Team A. Where is the ball inbounded after the F/T's from the TF? Does the team still have inbound priviledges if from the baseline? |
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As usual, you are completely wrong, rules-wise. <b>We</b> are not taught that in NFHS. Or NCAA either <b>We</b> are not taught that because it goes completely against what is already in the freaking rule book. If a coach requests a TO while his team has player control or the ball is dead, you grant the damn request. It doesn't matter when this happens during any period, including the last 5 seconds. Again, if you don't own rule books or understand the rules, you shouldn't be making comments on the rules. |
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I agree, you probadly shouldn't ignore the TO request even if you are sure the team doesn't have it. The point is don't have an inadvertent whistle with 5 or less seconds left in a NFHS game, espeically if it's close. |
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Peace |
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2)"Probably"? Don't think so, JMO. There's no "probably" involved. You follow the damn rules. Of course, you <b>do</b> have to know the rules before you can follow them. |
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Women's - 2 shots for B, B has posession awarded (because of the excess timeout) at the division line (on either side of the court). |
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Nice point on the women's side too. I did not know that it went to the division line, but I know the TO also comes with lost of possession in women's considering the team was on offense. |
I am having a cup of coffee right now. I invite you all to do the same. It is common ground and will cut the jabs everyone is taking.
Centre line extended for technical fouls "of a[n]... administrative nature" (rule 38.3.2). |
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