Timing correction.

[devdog69]

Just so we can talk about something new, here's a situation that I had come up on Saturday. Towards the end of the first overtime, B1, down by three rips down a rebound. B2, near me, calls timeout. I blow whistle, look at clock and see 4.3 seconds. By the time clock stops it reads 2.5 seconds. My partner the "R" asks me if I have any information on the clock so I told him it said 4.3 when I looked. What should have been done? Rulebook and casebook references please. I let him handle it since we were being evaluated, figured if he screwed it up it would be on his shoulders. I'll tell you what we did after I get some feedback from everybody.

[Mark Dexter]

First of all, you let the referee handle the situation because he's the only person who can do so by rule (2-5-5).

Now, were you set the clock depends upon when you looked at the clock. If you saw the clock at 4.3 when you whistled (i.e., you were facing the clock), then the timer is allowed one second of lag time, and the clock should be set to 3.3 seconds.

If, however, you whistled and then looked up at the clock, the one second lag time, by interpretation, elapsed before you looked at the clock. In this case, the clock should be set to 4.3 seconds because the whistle is interpreted as coming at 5.3 seconds.

Reference: 5.10.1B, 5.10.1B Comment!!!, and 5.10.1D.

[Hawks Coach]

You can and should correct it, acording to Rule 5-10, Timer's Mistakes:
ART. 1 . . . The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she had definite information relative to the time involved.
ART. 2 . . . If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's count or other official information can be used to make a correction.

The question then is what time should be on the clock. I know (but cannot find a reference) that you allow a 1 second delay. So now you must deal with the question of definite information. My take - If you have no idea what time expired between blowing the whistle and looking at the clock but you are certain it was 1 second or greater, you would reset to 4.3 seconds, because you allowed for the lag prior to looking at clock and your only definite information is the 4.3 seconds. If you are not certain that the time was 1 second or greater (or are certain it was less), you would have to reset the clock to 3.3 seconds to account for allowable lag time.

[Mark Dexter]

The lag time reference is found only in the case book. 5.10.1B Comment is the basis for the lag time interpretation.

[devdog69]

5.10.1 SITUATION D, ruling in (c), and (d). Seems to almost contradict the interpretation in 5.10.1 SITUATION B, I think there needs to be some clarification there about how to handle the "lag time" issue when more than one second has run off the clock and the official has "definite knowledge". And no, Mark, I will not just "let the referee handle it", we are a team out there and he will make the final decision but we will discuss the options together first. In my situation we reset the clock to 3.3 seconds, it was 4.3 when I looked and 2.5 when it stopped. I think once we have to make a change because more than one second ran off that we should be able to reset it to the 4.3 seconds.

[Mark Dexter]

What I meant by let the referee handle it is that he makes the final decision and reports it to the table. Of course you would both have to talk to let each other know what you saw.

5.10.1C does not refer to the clock - it only covers the mistakes of officials in counts such as 3 seconds, 5 closely guarded, 5 throw-in, 10 second backcourt. If the official had properly counted to 10 in this situation and then noticed the clock was at :12, the referee would order :02 placed on the clock.

The key between B and D is the word after. Let's say the clock is counting down from :10.0. You are looking at the clock after a made basket when A2 requests a time out, and you blow the whistle when the clock shows :07.3. In this situation, you must allow for lag time in stopping the clock. If the clock shows anything between :06.3 and :07.3, the time cannot be corrected. If the time is less than :06.3, the clock is set to :06.3 - not :07.3.

Same time situation, and there is an OOB violation called. You whistle, put your hand up, and then look up at the clock. Because you were not looking at the clock when the whistle was blown, the lag time was the time between your whistle and when you looked at the clock. Here, if you looked up and saw :07.3, the clock would be reset to :07.3 if it showed anything less than :07.3.

In the original situation, if you whistled and then looked up at the clock, time should have been reset to :04.3.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Now that everybody has looked up all of the NFHS rules and casebook references I will put in my two cents.

Under NCAA rules the clock is reset to 4.3 seconds. Under NFHS rules I would not reset the clock. 1.8 seconds in within acceptable parameters for reaction time for the official to blew his whistle and for the timer to react to it.

NCAA DOES NOT allow lag time. NFHS DOES allow lag time.

Now under NFHS rules the clock had run out, the official would have been allowed to put time back on the clock. I would have reset it to three seconds.

[devdog69]

I agree with your position on this subject Mark Dexter, I just wish it was clearer in the case book. Btw, I never said anything about 5.10.1 Situation C. The confusion is between 5.10.1 B & D. As for you, Mr. D, 1.8 seconds is not acceptable. In the comment after the ruling in 5.10.1 Situation B, "By interpretation, "lag or reaction" time is limited to one second when the official's signal is heard and/or seen clearly." Any additional time off the clock is considered a timing mistake and must be corrected.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
In this situation, you must allow for lag time in stopping the clock. If the clock shows anything between :06.3 and :07.3, the time cannot be corrected. If the time is less than :06.3, the clock is set to :06.3 - not :07.3.

Mark, you're right on about this, but I think it's a dumb procedure. If the official has definite knowledge that the whistle blew with 7.3 seconds left on the clock, then the official should be allowed to put 7.3 up on the clock. I just don't see why, when you are sure of what the time was, you are obligated to put less time back on the clock. Just seems dumb to me.

Just to be clear, Mark's not dumb. The procedure that he correctly explained is dumb.

Chuck

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Now that everybody has looked up all of the NFHS rules and casebook references I will put in my two cents.

Under NCAA rules the clock is reset to 4.3 seconds. Under NFHS rules I would not reset the clock. 1.8 seconds in within acceptable parameters for reaction time for the official to blew his whistle and for the timer to react to it.

NCAA DOES NOT allow lag time. NFHS DOES allow lag time.

Now under NFHS rules the clock had run out, the official would have been allowed to put time back on the clock. I would have reset it to three seconds.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no!!!!!!

You are correct that, under NCAA rules, there is no lag time provision and the clock would be set to 4.3.

However, 1.8 seconds is not an acceptable lag time for a timer. I personally think that if the timer takes a full second to stop the clock, he or she is slow, but the one second is the rule - not 0.5 or 1.8 - 1.0 seconds is the maximum that is allowed to run off the clock!

Are you saying that the only time you would reset the clock is if you blew the whistle, there was an appreciable delay, and then the horn blew? Let me tell you, B's not going to be happy with 2.5 on the clock if there should be 3.3 or especially 4.3. They'll be even angrier if they have 3/10ths or less - as you have just taken away their possibility for a last-second try.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by devdog69
I agree with your position on this subject Mark Dexter, I just wish it was clearer in the case book. Btw, I never said anything about 5.10.1 Situation C. The confusion is between 5.10.1 B & D. As for you, Mr. D, 1.8 seconds is not acceptable. In the comment after the ruling in 5.10.1 Situation B, "By interpretation, "lag or reaction" time is limited to one second when the official's signal is heard and/or seen clearly." Any additional time off the clock is considered a timing mistake and must be corrected.

Oh, yeah. Ruling in (c) and (d)

This is an incredibly confusing set of case plays, especially seeing that they are not covered in the actual rule book. My advice - read through slowly and carefully, and be attentive to the exact wording of the different situations.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Just to be clear, Mark's not dumb. The procedure that he correctly explained is dumb.

I don't know - I'm in the middle of final exams and sure feel dumb!

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Now that everybody has looked up all of the NFHS rules and casebook references I will put in my two cents.

Under NCAA rules the clock is reset to 4.3 seconds. Under NFHS rules I would not reset the clock. 1.8 seconds in within acceptable parameters for reaction time for the official to blew his whistle and for the timer to react to it.

NCAA DOES NOT allow lag time. NFHS DOES allow lag time.

Now under NFHS rules the clock had run out, the official would have been allowed to put time back on the clock. I would have reset it to three seconds.

Mark, there are times where you offer stong and compelling aguments for a unique point of view. But I continue to be amazed at some of your interpretations of clearly stated NFHS rules and cases. Mark Dexter and I came up with the exact same answer yesterday simultaneously (I wrote mine seeing only the sitch and not Mark's response). Mine was based on rules that I have at hand and memory o aout 10-20 postings on this subject. Mark's based his on the rules and on a case book to which he has ready access (what does he do when he is not reading that book!).

What rules or cases can you cite that allow 1.8 seconds of lag time in NFHS, given that Mark Dexter has given us a case that clearly states 1 second is the allowable time. We have had this discussion numerous times on this board, never once have I seen a sustainable claim that greater than 1 second lag time with definite knowledge is acceptable. Where did you derive this?

[BktBallRef]

Coach, right or wrong, I'm sure he'll come up something to back up his stand!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Now that everybody has looked up all of the NFHS rules and casebook references I will put in my two cents.

Under NCAA rules the clock is reset to 4.3 seconds. Under NFHS rules I would not reset the clock. 1.8 seconds in within acceptable parameters for reaction time for the official to blew his whistle and for the timer to react to it.

NCAA DOES NOT allow lag time. NFHS DOES allow lag time.

Now under NFHS rules the clock had run out, the official would have been allowed to put time back on the clock. I would have reset it to three seconds.

Hey Mark, your 2 cents must be Canadian, not US. Where
do you get 1.8 seconds lag time allowed in NFHS?