Situation in last night's game.
Home team is top ranked girls team in the state. (actually they won the mythical National Championship last year)
4th quarter,less than 2:00 remaining. Girl on visiting team
comes close to a travel, but is subsequently fouled.
Girls on home team start complaining about a travel.
So I say to them, "You are up by 23 points, relax."
Meaning, at that point in the game, with the score as it is,
you really don't need to be giong crazy over a possible travel call. Captain says "You still need to call the travel" I say to her, "it was close", she then seemed to accept that and said "ok".
Less than a minute left, we are shooting free throws and I notice, the captain saying something to her head coach and I hear the assistant say, "That's not right!" I then know she is talking about my statement. Couple more trips down the floor, in what is now close to a 30 point game, and I can feel the Home coaches daggers shooting at me. As I run by, he says, "the score doesn't matter". I ignore him.
Visiting team calls timeout. Home coach walks onto the floor, and proceeds to say to my PARTNER (not me) that my comments were unprofessional, and that the score doesn't mean we don't make calls. (in theory I agree, but reality is otherwise.) I try to walk him back to the bench by placing my hand on his back and saying "Coach, let's walk back to your bench while we talk." He then pulls away and says, "take your hands off me." By the way, I have used this technique many times and NEVER had a coach take exception to it. He then threatens to send a tape to the state!? At this point my thought is to "T" him up since he wants to be a jack-a***. After all, HE came onto the floor.
Yeah, send a tape to the state and let them see you on the floor, me, trying to use discretion by helping you back to the bench without wacking you, and see what they say.
Anyway, I'm mainly venting. I would still tell players in a game that is a blowout, not to get freaky about a call in the last minute of the game.
I have lost any respect I may have had for this coach.
To me, his taking offense at me trying to walk him back to the bench was saying, "I'm Mr. Big time head coach, you can't tell me what to do."
Any thoughts?
Drake

In a situation like this, I would probably tell the captain that the player did not travel. You said it was close to a travel. We took that to mean she did not travel, but when you say "it was close" to the opponents, it sounds like she travelled 'just a bit.'

You were ok in this situation; HOWEVER, I would NEVER, NEVER, put my hand or other body parts, on ANYONE, without legal cause (i.e. I am in a correctional institution and am legally required to physically intervene when emminent danger exists). Your intentions were on target, but the method of execution (Pun intended :D) was not the best choice.

Was that "coach" out of line? ABSOLUTELY, but it is not justification for you to get into a power struggle. Do not lower yourself to his standard.

Yes, I realize the testosterone was flowing at full bore. Ain't it great! :)

To me it's kind of ironic that the main reason I didn't "t"
the coach up was the same reason his player was upset that I didn't call a travel. At that point in the game, it wasn't worth it. Did I feel like wacking him? Damn straight!
would it have accomplished anything? Nope.
Willie, thatnks for the advice. I generally am very careful about putting my hands on someone as a ref. There have been times when you can't avoid it. However, I will NEVER grab a player from behind.(for example, in a fight situation.)
It's a good way to lose some teeth.

Think I would have handled the no-calls the same way, and probably said the same thing. Glad I read the post here, now I can avoid a problem.

I would also advise against putting your hand on anyone. The only time I have ever put a hand on a player or coach was two nights ago. Hustling toward my favorit spot to report a foul, glanced back to double check the players number and had another girl step right in my path. Had to grab her to keep from knocking her over and tripping over her. We almost ended up in a heap, I started to pretend we were dancing but figured that would not look appropriate.

I'm sure this is going to be unpopular, but here goes....

I make it a point NEVER to comment on the score when questioned about a call. I agree wholeheartedly that it's appropriate to adjust with the score of the game, but I've found that it's not been helpful ever to say so.

As a coach, if I were already irritated with an official and looking for something to gripe about, I might just jump on your (seeming) admission that you passed on a call because it wasn't a close game. As an official, I try (sometimes unsuccessfully) not to give coaches too much specific language to gripe about.

Another aspect: I just went through a situation where a report had to be filed to the state for an ejection (thankfully, I was neither the ejectOR nor the ejectEE!) The specific language used by the official was ill-chosen, and quoting it on the report made him look pretty bad.

As a young official, I'm coming to the personal conclusion that "the less said, the better." YMMV.

Joe

[Edited by JoeT on Dec 14th, 2001 at 10:08 AM]

I had another reminder as to why not to make physical contact with players and/or coaches last night. Early in the fourth in Freshman girls game a girl fouls out. She knew it and was already standing by the bench. I tell her coach that's five, tell the clock to give me a 30-second timer and start it. She walks over to me and sticks her hand out saying "thanks, good game". I guess it caught me off guard, but I shook her hand. Only she squeezed as hard as she could and then threw my hand away violently (ya had to be there), turned and stomped away. It was apparent her intentions were not at all as innocent as she made them appear at first. I immediately put my whistle in my mouth, and was a nanosecond away from putting air in it. Just counted to three and decided to handle it another way. I told her AD about it after the game and I will have them at least three more times this year and I plan on telling her that it won't be tolerated again. Comments?

[Edited by devdog69 on Dec 14th, 2001 at 09:05 AM]

Joe,

I do agree that telling a player that you're justifying a no-call because of the time and score is not wise practice.
As I said earlier, I made the statement in an attempt to help them realize that the LEVEL of their complaining at that point in the game was not necessary.
I guess I didn't do a good enough job.
The other point that ticked me off, is that why do players
have to run crying to their coach when an official says something? Grow up! (More venting)
The final score by the way was 71-48!

Joe,what you said above ain't unpopular with me.There's a lot of common sense in what you wrote,and age or being a young official has nothing to do with how to use common sense.

Drake -

I understood your intent, and I agree with it. I'm just oversensitive (this week particularly) to saying things that could be used against me out of context. I wasn't suggesting you didn't do a good job!


Here could be a reason (although I agree that some "growing up" is also in order): As a coach, I instruct my players never to comment to an official (except for the floor captain asking a polite, specific question). I tell them to approach me if they have a concern about the officiating, and in return I will mention it to the official politely if I cannot answer their question. I have found that it's most helpful to the quality of their play if they learn not to concern themselves with how the officials are doing. They already have five opponents' actions to be concerned about.

I think JoeT got this one right, Drake. Think about
your conversation with the captain, you fell into a situation where you were debating with the player instead
of ignoring her or telling her there was no walk & playing
on. Maybe you let your guard down because it was a
blowout. As for the coach, well, he's a solid gold
dyed in the wool @sshole. You did a great job by trying
to herd him off the floor, you did even better by not T'ing
that SOB up. Thinking about it here calmly in front of
my computer maybe the best response to "take your hands
off me" would have been "then get off my floor, now!"
Nothing much he can say to that, and the threat of what
is coming next is pretty strongly implied. Thanks for
sharing this sitch, it remnds us how quickly things can
spin out of control.

Dan,
That's basically what I did. Not exactly "get off my floor"
but I made it well known to him that he didn't have right to be on the floor and I could take care of it very easily if he would like.
One more gripe.
When he came out on the floor, he addressed my PARTNER, not me. If he had a problem with me, then be big enough to discuss it with me.

I think you would have been very justified in charging the girl with a technical foul. If she made a big production of it and it appears she did, then she was trying to embarass you and was deserving of a technical foul.

Couple of thoughts
 

First, if anybody hasn't already heard Joe's advice, he is directly on target. "The less said, the better." That's why captain's conferences are 20 seconds or less. That's why you don't announce the type of foul when you report to the table. That's why you only say "One!" when administering FTs (no need to say, "Ok, guys, we had a good hoop, so we're only shooting one, here. Everybody get set. Make sure it gets iron before you come into the lane. OK? Here we go. One!"). Almost anything you say can give somebody cause for taking umbrage. So say as little as possible. And when you do say something, keep it short, and unemotional. (See my post about Jimmy Burr vs. Bobby Knight.)

Second, I would never refer to the score as an explanation for a call/no-call. Better just to re-affirm your call, "It wasn't a travel." If you want to try to be lighthearted about it, you might add, "And you guys don't need any extra help tonight." But as this example clearly points out, admitting that you "referee the score" will only cause bad feelings (even tho every official does it at one point or another).

Third, devdog, you have GOT to T that girl. That is the definition of unsportsmanlike. Absolutely report it to the AD, but you should never tolerate that kind of disrespect on the court. It is irrelevant whether anybody else knows what happened. I can't believe that a player would do that. If I were speaking instead of typing, I'd be sputtering with outrage. Give the T and sit the coach, since she's bench personnel.

Finally, I've only physically moved a player once in my career. It was a 7th/8th grade boys game. A time-out was called and one little punk was doing a stare-down at another player and looked like he actually wanted to go at it. I got right in front of him, put my hand in his chest and moved him back to his bench. He said, "You can't push me!" And I just said, "You're not fighting during MY game" and kept walking until we were at his bench.

Take it for what it's worth.

Chuck

Drake,

Does he know your partner better than you? Do you have
a history with this guy? He did make it personal and
for no good reason. At any rate I think he was playing
with you and was going to make you "reach" for a T if you
decided to take him. Maybe he had the idea of getting you
to fly off the handle, or at least look bad on the tape, so
he would have something real to b1tch about. Pretty weak
if he sent in a tape of a "crazed official" and here's
Drake patiently doing his job.

Dan,
I don't really know if he knew my partner well. As I said in my post, this guy has won several State titles and a National Championship. My feeling was he was trying to make sure everybody knew he was "the Man". It is only the second time I've had this school, and the first time, he was not a
problem. He had been complaining the entire game about one thing or another.
In fact my partner mentioned to me that he had never seen this coach complain so much.
As I said, final score was 71-48 for his team, we were not even in the 1 and 1 in the first half. There was only 1 foul in the third quarter (player control against the VISITING team), and the second half ended with 3 team fouls for his squad, 4 for the other team.
We let our share of incidental contact go, but there were no train wreck that didn't get called. In fact no train wrecks period!
I find it ironic, that in my neck of the woods, I have had a rep. for being quick on the "t". (IMHO, unjustified, but I can always work harder on conflict resolution).
And one time I show some restraint in a situation where CLEARLY I would have been justified in assessing a "T", I get a coach that acts like that.

Re: Couple of thoughts
 

The sentence I have used that has worked in this situation is, "It's not like I'm taking the game away from you." This admits nothing, and points up the attitude of the coach or player who is complaining.

First, I would not say you were wrong to shake hands - the appearance of you standing there ignoring an extended hand could also be detrimental to you. It is at least something that you would need to consider in advance how to handle without looking unprofessional and inconsiderate, which you had not done, so you had no choice but to be gracious. However, she put you in the position of shaking her hand or looking stupid, and when you decided to shake her hand, she proceeds to try to make you look stupid anyway. Making a public attempt to himiliate a ref would be an auto-T for me. I would not only have no problem with you giving the T, I would expect it. Some things you cannot let go, and for me, this is way over the line.

I do not think refusing to shake a player's hand on the
floor is inconsiderate or ungracious. It's the thing to
do. You want to shake my hand then chase me down as I'm
running to the lockers after the game & do it in private.

Drake,

FWIW, the coach in question (I know very well who he is) does things like this. He can be great one game and be a total jerk the next. I think you should have whacked him. He could be taken down a couple of notches. His tape comment was priceless. I would have asked him how he will defend his actions that are clearly represented on the tape. You know Jerry would back you on it.

Don't take their crap.

See ya soon.

Good morning,

I'm of the "less said the better" school. I try not to get into debates with players or coaches over calls. If a player wants to ask a question respectfully about a call, yes I will give them an explanation. If they want to debate about how wrong I am, then I'm out of there. I'll try not to let anyone know verbally that I'm officiating to the score, even though I might be.

As far as the other situation with the girl and the handshake. Yes, shake her hand. Otherwise you may appear rude. If she does what she did, Whack her. If you do, in that situation it is also an indirect T on the coach. She became bench personnel when you notified the coach of the DQ. Now you don't have to deal with a coach up and in your face. He now has to follow the bench decorum rule(make sure you tell him).

I am saying that if dev had not thought out an appropriate response to a player who offers her hand, he risks looking stupid by standing there staring at it and not acknowledging it. It is the appearance that I am referring to, not that the ref is being ungracious or inconsiderate. It can have the affect of undermining your authority. But you can't throw out a T to a player who wants to shake your hand. And since you aren't leaving the floor in the situation dev outlined, running away quickly is not an option. So shaking the hand may have put him at risk for the follow on showmanship, but it was the player's next actions that caused the problem. If they choose to use an act of graciousness as a device to show you up, WHACK!!!

Thanks for the input and support all. The bad thing about it was I don't think anyone else even noticed it, or at least few, if any. The AD even brushed it off when I told him, saying I'm sure she didn't mean it. Well, I knew she did. I am glad I didn't give her the technical, especially since we have to send in reports for them. But, I am a regular at this school and she will know how thin her ice is before we tip the next one. Of course, I mean with her sportsmanship, I would not call the fouls on/against her any different during play, just will let her know that such incidents will not be tolerated.

Since when? What states use this mechanic???

Curious...

Not that I want to beat this to death but before or after
a game I'll shake anybody's hand who offers me theirs.
During the game if a player or coach offers me his hand to
shake I'll tell them no & walk away. I may or may not
smile as I shake my head no, depending on how I feel.
That's *my* pre-thought out appropriate response to this
type of thing. For the very few times a hand is offered I
might look like a jerk. But I'll be looking like an
impartial jerk, and a player will never do to me what
happened to our friend here.

Illinois, for one. The key word being "announce." We just give one of the approved signals, with no words.

IOW, "White, 32," ,demonstrate signal, "two shots."

Thanks, Bob. That was exactly my point. I'm sorry if I was unclear, Brad. I believe the correct mechanic is to give a signal, but not to verbalize it. So you're not going to the table and saying "push, block, hack, on the arm" or anything at all. Again, I apologize for not making that clearer.

Quote:

originally posted by devdog I would not call the fouls on/against her any different during play, just will let her know that such incidents will not be tolerated.

With all due respect, dev, if you wanted to let her know that you wouldn't tolerate it, then you should've called the T. Because what you just showed her was that you did tolerate it. Again, it's just my opinion, but no official should accept that kind of disrespect on the court from a player.

chuck

He didn't win anything. His players did. He didn't score a single point or make a single steal or block.

My recommendation is just to puke on his shoes and be done with it.

BTW - I have officiated tournament games involving the Oregon City, OR girls team. They were the number one team in the nation for a few years and their coach at the time, Brad Smith, was and still is one of the absolute best coaches to have in your game. If he has a complaint, it's really in the form of a question, he waits until a break to ask and it's almost always about a rule interpretation. I can't recall him ever questioning a judgement call unless the official was out of position, and then he still does it in a respectful manner.

I guess my point is, maybe part of why the really top coaches get that way is their attitude during games.

Without a doubt the funniest thing I have ever seen a referee do was my partner a few years ago refereeing an Under 23 Women's game. The two teams had just gotten the lycra bodysuits that have become popular in Australia - and as you can imagine, many of the players were quite easy on the eyes.

Anyway, my partner calls a push on Red 12, walks to the bench to make the call, and does the push signal to his left hand side - without looking. Of course there is a player standing right next to him - just outside his line of sight.

I'm sure you can imagine where he planted his two open hands! He went bright red and just stood there for 60 seconds staring at his hands, and not quite sure what to do. The player took it very well, and we all had a good laugh about it.

The moral: look before you do any hand signals! :)

I give up.........
 

Duane,

Where did your partner put his hands?