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-   -   4 Guys on the floor.... (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/34296-4-guys-floor.html)

blindofficial Sun May 06, 2007 05:20am

4 Guys on the floor....
 
What's the rule for the following:

T1 comes out of the timeout with only 4 players. Play resumes. Can T1 bring in there 5th player (he was playing before the timeout), or does he have to wait for a dead ball? And if T1 brings in a 5th player, is the ball dead and a "T" given? I never thought this would happen, but it happened twice this past weekend.

Nevadaref Sun May 06, 2007 05:45am

Rule 10 Fouls and Penalties
SECTION 1 TEAM TECHNICAL
A team shall not:

...
ART. 9 . . . Fail to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission.

PENALTY: (Section 1) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in.

DELAYING RETURN FOLLOWING TIME-OUT
10.1.9 SITUATION: Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1 attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass. RULING: A technical foul is immediately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once a team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time. COMMENT: The resumption-of-play procedure is in effect to start the second half unless either team is not on the court. In that case regular delay provisions are in force.

Jurassic Referee Sun May 06, 2007 06:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Rule 10 Fouls and Penalties
SECTION 1 TEAM TECHNICAL
A team shall not:

...
ART. 9 . . . Fail to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission.

PENALTY: (Section 1) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in.

DELAYING RETURN FOLLOWING TIME-OUT
10.1.9 SITUATION: Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1 attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass. RULING: A technical foul is immediately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once a team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time. COMMENT: The resumption-of-play procedure is in effect to start the second half unless either team is not on the court. In that case regular delay provisions are in force.

This case play doesn't answer the question of what the call is if the fifth player doesn't come back on the court until the next legal substitution opportunity.

Nevadaref Sun May 06, 2007 10:35pm

It sure does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
DELAYING RETURN FOLLOWING TIME-OUT
10.1.9 SITUATION: Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1 attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass. RULING: A technical foul is immediately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once a team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time. COMMENT: The resumption-of-play procedure is in effect to start the second half unless either team is not on the court. In that case regular delay provisions are in force.

A fifth player waiting at the scorer's table until the next substitution opportunity clearly is not entering the court at approximately the same time as his teammates.

zebraman Sun May 06, 2007 10:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
It sure does.



A fifth player waiting at the scorer's table until the next substitution opportunity clearly is not entering the court at approximately the same time as his teammates.

But not mention in this case play that the officials should have called a T if they had noticed only four B players on the floor when play started. Why is that?

Nevadaref Sun May 06, 2007 11:05pm

Perhaps the officials didn't notice, perhaps the rules committee believes there is no need for a case play stating to immediately call a T as it is obvious from the rule, or perhaps the rules committee felt that it was more important to use the case play to explain the reasoning behind why all of the players have to return at the same time -- it could be used deceptively to gain an advantage in the manner described in the case play.

Just some thoughts.

zebraman Sun May 06, 2007 11:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Perhaps the officials didn't notice, perhaps the rules committee believes there is no need for a case play stating to immediately call a T as it is obvious from the rule, or perhaps the rules committee felt that it was more important to use the case play to explain the reasoning behind why all of the players have to return at the same time -- it could be used deceptively to gain an advantage in the manner described in the case play.

Just some thoughts.

Possibly. Or perhaps because there is no advantage gained from unknowingly having only 4 players returned and no penalty is needed unless the 5th one joins in while the ball is live? I've often wondered why and would like a clarification from NFHS.

Jurassic Referee Sun May 06, 2007 11:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by zebraman
Or perhaps because there is no advantage gained from unknowingly having only 4 players returned and no penalty is needed unless the 5th one joins in while the ball is live? I've often wondered why and would like a clarification from NFHS.

Yup, it's not definitively covered, as we've already gone over already several times in different threads. I agree with the logic above that no penalty is listed and there's no need to call a "T" if the fifth player doesn't come on. Playing with 4 players by itself is penalty enough.

Nevadaref Mon May 07, 2007 02:31am

I have a similar thought to you and JR about the inherent disadvantage of playing with four, but the NFHS does have a requirement that a team has to play the game with five players if it has five team members available.

3-1-1 . . . Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain.
NOTE: A team must begin the game with five players, but if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players, it must continue with fewer than five. When there is only one player participating for a team, the team shall forfeit the game, unless the referee believes that team has an opportunity to win the game.


NUMBER OF PLAYERS REQUIRED
3.1.1 SITUATION: After six players have been disqualified, Team A has only four who are eligible to continue in the game as players. In a gesture of fair play, the coach of Team B indicates a desire to withdraw a player so that each team will have four players on the court. RULING: This is not permissible. Team B must have five players participating as long as it has that number available. If no substitute is available, a team must continue with fewer than five players. When only one player remains to participate, that team shall forfeit the game unless the referee believes this team still has an opportunity to win the game.


Where JR and I disagree is that my position is that there most definitely is a rule which covers a team failing to send five back out following a time-out or intermission. It is 10-1-9, and the penalty is also right there in black-and-white. The book clearly states that this is a technical foul.

What is not currently covered, due to the rule change back in 2005-06 which altered the penalty for leaving the court, is the case in which a team does this after a normal substitution process due to confusion. 10-1-9 wouldn't apply under those circumstances and 9-3-3 is intended to only govern action during a live ball.

Hence we need and have a case play that tells us to call a T if the fifth player returns to the court during playing action, but we have no guidance whatsoever if the kid does not return. This is the case for which no penalty is prescribed in the NFHS rules.

10.3.3 SITUATION B: After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both Team A and Team B, A5 goes to the bench and remains there, believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return and A5 sprints directly onto the court without reporting or without being beckoned. RULING: A technical foul is charged to A5 for returning during playing action even though A5 had not been replaced.

Nevadaref Mon May 07, 2007 02:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by zebraman
Possibly. Or perhaps because there is no advantage gained from unknowingly having only 4 players returned and no penalty is needed unless the 5th one joins in while the ball is live? I've often wondered why and would like a clarification from NFHS.

Since there is no advantage to a team playing with only four, why don't we let teams do it whenever they wish, including at the beginning of a game?
Simply because of rules which state that they can't. That's why.

Jurassic Referee Mon May 07, 2007 04:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
3-1-1 . . . Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain.
NOTE: A team must begin the game with five players, but if <font color = red>it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players</font>, it must continue with fewer than five. When there is only one player participating for a team, the team shall forfeit the game, unless the referee believes that team has an opportunity to win the game.


NUMBER OF PLAYERS REQUIRED
3.1.1 SITUATION: After six players have been disqualified, Team A has only four who are eligible to continue in the game as players. In a gesture of fair play, the coach of Team B indicates a desire to withdraw a player so that each team will have four players on the court. RULING: This is not permissible. Team B must have five players participating as long as it has that number available. If no substitute is available, a team must continue with fewer than five players. When only one player remains to participate, that team shall forfeit the game unless the referee believes this team still has an opportunity to win the game.


10.3.3 SITUATION B: After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both Team A and Team B, A5 goes to the bench and remains there, believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return and <font color = red>A5 sprints directly onto the court without reporting or without being beckoned.</font> RULING: A technical foul is charged to A5 for returning during playing action even though A5 had not been replaced.

Neither case play cited above is relevant or applicable to the situation being discussed. In the first case, the team simply has <b>NO</b> substitutes. In the second case, the player came on to the court during playing action, <b>NOT</b> at the next opportunity to substitute.

Apples and dinosaurs.

Mark Dexter Mon May 07, 2007 06:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Since there is no advantage to a team playing with only four, why don't we let teams do it whenever they wish, including at the beginning of a game?
Simply because of rules which state that they can't. That's why.

But the rules don't say we give a T then let them play with 4. The rule just states that you have to have 5. If we don't we wait, then you could have a delay of game T or a forfeit.

bob jenkins Mon May 07, 2007 07:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Since there is no advantage to a team playing with only four, why don't we let teams do it whenever they wish, including at the beginning of a game?
Simply because of rules which state that they can't. That's why.

There's a difference, imo, between a team knowingly playing (or trying to play) with 4 (not allowed) and mistakenly playing with 4 (allowed, and a T if the 5th player just runs on the court).

howie719 Mon May 07, 2007 09:01am

My question to Nevada: If you or one of you partners notice just after a time-out a team only has four players, aren't you going to hold up play inform the coach he only has four so he can get his fifth out there?

Ch1town Mon May 07, 2007 09:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by howie719
My question to Nevada: If you or one of you partners notice just after a time-out a team only has four players, aren't you going to hold up play inform the coach he only has four so he can get his fifth out there?


That's what I was thinking too howie. If I'm not administering the throw-in following a time-out I generally flash the 10 to my partner to let him/her know we're good to go. Or I give the stop sign until we get it right, whether there is < than 10 or > than 10. Isn't this common practice?

Old School Mon May 07, 2007 10:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch1town
That's what I was thinking too howie. If I'm not administering the throw-in following a time-out I generally flash the 10 to my partner to let him/her know we're good to go. Or I give the stop sign until we get it right, whether there is < than 10 or > than 10. Isn't this common practice?

I count to 5, both teams, easier and quicker to cout to 5 then 10.

The fact of the matter is it happens, and both the officials and the teams are to blame. I had it happen this weekend except we had 6 and niether my partner or myself noticed it and the player ran off the court before we did. Action, no action because we didn't see it, situation corrected itself which to me is better than enforcing a technical.

Had it happen in a bow out game and the team that was down by 30 or more, can't remember, after a timeout had 6 on the floor. I just stop the clocked and got the extra guy off the court and gave the ball back to the team. It went over so smooth, nobody said a word. I mean I gave the ball back to the team that was down that had 6 players on the floor. What I hate is when you run into coaches that wants you to enforce it in such a lopsided AAU type game.

Adam Mon May 07, 2007 10:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School
The fact of the matter is it happens, and both the officials and the teams are to blame.

No, the officials are not to blame.

tjchamp Mon May 07, 2007 10:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
10.3.3 SITUATION B: After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both Team A and Team B, A5 goes to the bench and remains there, believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return and A5 sprints directly onto the court without reporting or without being beckoned. RULING: A technical foul is charged to A5 for returning during playing action even though A5 had not been replaced.

The ruling is to call the T when A5 returned to the court. It says nothing about calling it while they are playing with 4. If the intent of the rule was to T if they are playing with 4, wouldn't the case point out the T should be called immediately?

Jurassic Referee Mon May 07, 2007 10:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjchamp
If the intent of the rule was to T if they are playing with 4, wouldn't the case point out the T should be called <font color = red>immediately</font>?

Bingo!<i></i>

Ch1town Mon May 07, 2007 10:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School
I count to 5, both teams, easier and quicker to cout to 5 then 10.

Not if you count by 2s :)

The fact of the matter is it happens, and both the officials and the teams are to blame.

I have been taught NOT to penalize a team for your mistakes. Basically, get it right the first time & there are no "correctable errors" to fix. IMO, to start action without 10 on the floor is a lack of communication between the enforcers.

Jurassic Referee Mon May 07, 2007 11:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch1town
I have been taught NOT to penalize a team for your mistakes. Basically, get it right the first time & there are no "correctable errors" to fix. IMO, to start action without 10 on the floor is a lack of communication between the enforcers.

You have been taught <b>wrong</b>. It is <b>always</b> the coach's responsibility to have the proper number of players on the court, <b>NOT</b> the officials. It is <b>NOT</b> and never has been an official's mistake. If we can catch it and prevent it, that's fine. If we can't, we simply call it without worrying about being Mr. Nice Guy. Maybe it shouldn't happen, but if it does, it sureasheck isn't our fault.

You might be be able to get away with the Old School " ignore-it" method in rec leagues, kiddie-ball & AAU crap, but above that you just follow the rules.

Adam Mon May 07, 2007 11:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch1town
I have been taught NOT to penalize a team for your mistakes. Basically, get it right the first time & there are no "correctable errors" to fix. IMO, to start action without 10 on the floor is a lack of communication between the enforcers.

Sure, because everyone is taught to prevent this if possible. That said, if you miss it and play starts with 6; it's not the officials' fault. It's still the coach's responsibility, it's the coach's fault, and it's the coach who gets the penalty.
Don't accept blame for this, otherwise you'll never want to enforce it.

Ch1town Mon May 07, 2007 11:29am

So I see thanks fellas, I stand corrected...

Nevadaref Tue May 08, 2007 04:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Neither case play cited above is relevant or applicable to the situation being discussed. In the first case, the team simply has NO substitutes. In the second case, the player came on to the court during playing action, NOT at the next opportunity to substitute.

Apples and dinosaurs.

Did you even read what I wrote in my post? :confused:
I mentioned 3-1-1 because it is the general rule which states that a team plays with five players and MUST start with that number. We can't allow them to begin with four and we can only allow them to continue with four when they have no subs available. I point this out to counter the argument of those who say why can't we let a team play with four? Afterall, it is its own penalty. Well, because the RULES of NFHS basketball say otherwise.

Then before I quoted 10.3.3 SitB, I wrote this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Hence we need and have a case play that tells us to call a T if the fifth player returns to the court during playing action, but we have no guidance whatsoever if the kid does not return. This is the case for which no penalty is prescribed in the NFHS rules.

So now we know what apples we're talking about and we also know who the dinosaur is. ;)

Nevadaref Tue May 08, 2007 05:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjchamp
The ruling is to call the T when A5 returned to the court. It says nothing about calling it while they are playing with 4. If the intent of the rule was to T if they are playing with 4, wouldn't the case point out the T should be called immediately?

tj, see my previous post for my comment about 10.3.3 Sit B.

Nevadaref Tue May 08, 2007 05:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by howie719
My question to Nevada: If you or one of you partners notice just after a time-out a team only has four players, aren't you going to hold up play inform the coach he only has four so he can get his fifth out there?

Probably, but my point is that an official also has rules justification under 10-1-9 to go ahead and just charge a team technical foul without doing anything else. Afterall, it is the team's responsibility to follow the rules and get their five out there in the manner required.

Adam Tue May 08, 2007 09:06am

I'm just following a thought here (not always a safe thing to do), but since the book tells us we can't let them play with four; should we stop play in the OP and bring the fifth back in? No penalty is prescribed, but we're told not to allow them to continue playing with four. Right?

Nevadaref Tue May 08, 2007 09:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells
I'm just following a thought here (not always a safe thing to do), but since the book tells us we can't let them play with four; should we stop play in the OP and bring the fifth back in? No penalty is prescribed, but we're told not to allow them to continue playing with four. Right?

In the OP situation, which is following a time-out or intermission, I would stop play and issue a technical foul UNLESS the team with five players on the court is in the middle of a scoring play. In that case, I would wait until that finished and then assess the team T.


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