Who's throw in?

[Danvrapp]

Had this one last night. The more I think about it, the more I think I kicked it.

Last seconds of the 3rd. A1 shoots, releases (ball in flight), A2 fouls B1 (push on box out). Horn goes off, ball does not go in. Neither team in bonus. Arrow favors A for start of 4th.

The horn may or may not have went off before I blew the Fox, but it was close.

Teams go to their respective bench, I report foul, and we start 4th with team B having division line throw in. Coach A didn't like it, but I told him his guy fouled and B gets the ball to start the 4th. Either way, I figure, team B should be entitled to the throw in, but I wasn't sure if the foul should be considered part of the 3rd???

Closest case book I can find is 5.6.3B, but my sitch wasn't a T, just a common foul.

Did I kick it?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Danvrapp

Did I kick it?

Yup. First of all, there's no such thing as "the horn may or may not have gone off before the whistle." Either it did or it didn't. You have to make a decision. Second, since it seems the period was over and there was no more time left to have B inbound, you just forget it. If there were free throws and the foul occured before the horn, you shoot the free throws as part of the 3rd quarter. The AP arrow to start the 4th is not at all affected by a common non-shooting foul at the end of the period.

Of course, if you had a foul between periods, it would be a technical and you would start the 4th with shots, then the ball OOB at the division line due to the technical. The AP arrow would still be unaffected.

[devdog69]

Mark is right on the money. If you're not in the bonus, you report the foul and the quarter is over. A gets the ball to start the 4th.

[Danvrapp]

So I did miss it. Learn somethin' new every day.

Sitch 1: Foul is before horn goes off and 3rd ends. Report foul, A's ball to begin 4th.

Sitch 2: Foul is after horn goes off, but before ball is dead, and 3rd ends. Report foul, A's ball to begin 4th.

Am I reading this right? There's really no difference in handling this in reference to whether the foul was before or after the horn? I do realize that it would make a difference if it were the end of the 2nd, 4th, or any OT period; but, at the end of the 1st and 3rd it really doesn't make a difference?

The book states that the timer is granted roughly one second of reflex time, so you can't put time on the clock if the foul and the horn was that close, at least I wouldn't think......

[Mark Dexter]

Just remember 5-6-3: No penalty or part of a penalty carries over from one extra period to the next.

Think of it this way - A1 has the ball with 1 second left in the first quarter. A1 travels, whistle, horn (within lag time). If A has the arrow, you don't give the ball to B.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Danvrapp
So I did miss it. Learn somethin' new every day.

Sitch 1: Foul is before horn goes off and 3rd ends. Report foul, A's ball to begin 4th.

Sitch 2: Foul is after horn goes off, but before ball is dead, and 3rd ends. Report foul, A's ball to begin 4th.

Am I reading this right? There's really no difference in handling this in reference to whether the foul was before or after the horn? I do realize that it would make a difference if it were the end of the 2nd, 4th, or any OT period; but, at the end of the 1st and 3rd it really doesn't make a difference?

The book states that the timer is granted roughly one second of reflex time, so you can't put time on the clock if the foul and the horn was that close, at least I wouldn't think......

Yes - the only exception would be a shooting foul. In that case, you would shoot 2 FT's, then start the 60 seconds, then go by the AP arrow.

Also, end of 2nd is treated the same as the end of the 1st and 3rd. (Except that the intermission is ten times as long).

[devdog69]

I am having a hard time with sitch 2. I don't know that I wouldn't rule this foul as incidental if it happened after the horn and wasn't intentional or flagrant. I know the ball is technically not dead because of the shot on the way and anything on the shooter or by the shooter I would certainly rule on. Change my mind if you can.
Ps, be nice though.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by devdog69
I am having a hard time with sitch 2. I don't know that I wouldn't rule this foul as incidental if it happened after the horn and wasn't intentional or flagrant. I know the ball is technically not dead because of the shot on the way and anything on the shooter or by the shooter I would certainly rule on. Change my mind if you can.
Ps, be nice though.

I would agree that sitch 2 is something that could be passed on (advantage/disadvantage concept) unless it was hard enough that you really feel that you have to call something. But if you have already blown the whistle and gone up with the hand because you reacted quicker to the foul than the horn, gotta call it at that point. But a little bumping after the horn is a good no call in my book.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Danvrapp
So I did miss it. Learn somethin' new every day.

Sitch 1: Foul is before horn goes off and 3rd ends. Report foul, A's ball to begin 4th.

Sitch 2: Foul is after horn goes off, but before ball is dead, and 3rd ends. Report foul, A's ball to begin 4th.

Am I reading this right? There's really no difference in handling this in reference to whether the foul was before or after the horn?

Why would there be any diference in these two situations? THe horn doesn't end the period when a try is in flight. As long as the ball is live you can have a personal foul.

(Now, I might have an issue with calling a push foul not on the shooter when the ball is in flight on a try. I don't see a disadvantage to the defense, yet. That is, depending on the amount of contact, hold your whistle on a "rebounding foul" until you see if the contact might have caused the offended team to not get the rebound. In your situation, since the horn sounded, there was no rebound to get -- thus maybe no disadvantage and maybe no foul.)

[Hawks Coach]

Its your latter case that I was referring to - rebounding foul, nobody can rebound, do we need to call it. If really bad, yeah - otherwise I would see this as a no-call.