Intentional Fouls

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by rainmaker

In the points of emphasis last year, there was a discussion of this, where it referred to the "strategic" foul. This is NOT an intention foul and should not be called as such. The difference is that the strategic foul is a legitimate attempt on the ball, and probably mostly looks like any other foul throughout the game -- an overzealous block, or a reach that doesn't work right, or such.

I agree with this - I don't agree with the strategy to intentionally foul to stop the clock, without making a legit attempt at the ball.I just have a problem with the fact that refs are unlikely/unwilling/uncomfortable calling intentionals, when you have the obvious fouls - but it seems like everyone is agreeing that the two handed push from behind and the bear hug are intentionals. That is what I wish would be called more often - or grabbing the arm away from the ball...

Thanks again for all the advice!

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Oz Referee
Could this be one of the few occasions where you non-FIBA referees may actually prefer the FIBA rule? What is the process for getting rules in NFHS changed, and would you like to see this rule changed?

Ha! That's a good one, Oz.

You'll never draw us over to the dark side . . .

I think the deep-seeded hatred for FIBA comes from two sources: (1) we invented the game and the rules - FIBA went and changed them. (2) The whole 1984 US vs. Russia game was decided by the VP of FIBA, if I remember correctly.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

I think the deep-seeded hatred for FIBA comes from two sources: ....(2) The whole 1984 US vs. Russia game was decided by the VP of FIBA, if I remember correctly.

Ah, Mark, the 1984 Olympics were played in Los Angeles. The Soviet Union, as well as the other Comuunist block nations, boysotted the Games, because we boycotted the 1980 games in Moscow. Incidentally, the USA, led by Michael Jordan, won the gold medal in basketball. They were the last completely collgiate USA team to win the gold medal.

My guess is that you were very young at the time.

[BktBallRef]

David,

Allow me to share some things with you that occurred to me last year.

Last year, the NFHS POE included intentional fouls. We heard in our clinics that intentional fouls must be called and yadda yadda yadda, this and that, blah blah blah. Anyway, I said, "Okay, I going to call it that way!"

Guess what? For the entire first month of the season, I stayed in the soup. On two occassions, I called rule book, excessive contact, intentional fouls. In both cases, it set the coaches off and I ended up busting both of them before the end of their games. All it takes is a couple of calls to your booking agent and you've got problems.

The fact is, until everyone starts calling the rule the way it's written, until the coaches come to accept it, and until those in higher places start backing us up when we call it, I won't be calling anything but the obvious ones.

Now that's the voice of experience! There's Points of Emphasis and there's reality. I understand what you're saying and I don't disagree with you. But the truth is that if you try to be a pioneer in this situations, you'll be punished.

Call the obvious but look for a reason not to call it when you can.

Tony

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Ah, Mark, the 1984 Olympics were played in Los Angeles. The Soviet Union, as well as the other Comuunist block nations, boysotted the Games, because we boycotted the 1980 games in Moscow. Incidentally, the USA, led by Michael Jordan, won the gold medal in basketball. They were the last completely collgiate USA team to win the gold medal.

My guess is that you were very young at the time.

Well, I wasn't alive in 1980, and was only 1 during the 1984 Olympics.

When was the big scandal where the US team should have won and ended up refusing their silver medals?

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Well, I wasn't alive in 1980, and was only 1 during the 1984 Olympics.

When was the big scandal where the US team should have won and ended up refusing their silver medals?

It was in Munich, Germany 1972 and the VP of FIBA was a Yugoslavian - and therefor closely aligned with the USSR.

[Mark Dexter]

Like I said before, the 1972 Munich Games . . .

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Ha! That's a good one, Oz.

You'll never draw us over to the dark side . . .

I think the deep-seeded hatred for FIBA comes from two sources: (1) we invented the game and the rules - FIBA went and changed them. (2) The whole 1984 US vs. Russia game was decided by the VP of FIBA, if I remember correctly.

I know certain Canadians that would object to that "we".

But in all seriousness - is the FIBA rule better? And how does the NFHS go about changing the rules?

[Larks]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
David,

Allow me to share some things with you that occurred to me last year.

Last year, the NFHS POE included intentional fouls. We heard in our clinics that intentional fouls must be called and yadda yadda yadda, this and that, blah blah blah. Anyway, I said, "Okay, I going to call it that way!"

Guess what? For the entire first month of the season, I stayed in the soup. On two occassions, I called rule book, excessive contact, intentional fouls. In both cases, it set the coaches off and I ended up busting both of them before the end of their games. All it takes is a couple of calls to your booking agent and you've got problems.

The fact is, until everyone starts calling the rule the way it's written, until the coaches come to accept it, and until those in higher places start backing us up when we call it, I won't be calling anything but the obvious ones.

Now that's the voice of experience! There's Points of Emphasis and there's reality. I understand what you're saying and I don't disagree with you. But the truth is that if you try to be a pioneer in this situations, you'll be punished.

Call the obvious but look for a reason not to call it when you can.

Tony

Now THAT is a different spin on this...coming from a Rook, that last thing I need is a black mark when I've put the time in that I have to get started.

Larks

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Oz Referee
It was in Munich, Germany 1972 and the VP of FIBA was a Yugoslavian - and therefor closely aligned with the USSR.

However, the situation was handled properly. We Americans don't like it, but the situation was handled as it should have been. There was a story about it in REFEREE magazine a year or so ago.

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

However, the situation was handled properly. We Americans don't like it, but the situation was handled as it should have been. There was a story about it in REFEREE magazine a year or so ago.

YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING!!!

You seriously support a spectator coming down from the stands and instructing the officials on what to do???? Anybody ever does that to me during a game and it will be the last time that I referee for that organisation.

When we start allowing people from the stands (regardless of their perceived authority) to make decisions about how to officiate a game - you might as well stop the game on every perceived foul/violation and have a committe review video and make a call.

[BktBallRef]

Just goes to show how much you really know about it.

The Soviet coach was attempting to call a timeout using an electronic device that coaches used to activate a light at the table before DougCollins shot his second FT. When the device wouldn't work, he frantically signalled TO. The table officials hit the horn, trying to alert the game officials, just s Collins released his second shot. The Bulgarian official on the floor didn't realize that the Soviet coach wanted TO until the ball had been inbounded.

It was at that time that R. William Jones, then the head of FIBA, left his seat and instructed the table officials to reset the clock to 3 seconds. According to your executive director of FIBA, Borislav Stankovic, "The intervetnion of Mr. Jones at that time was absolutley legal because he was president of the technical commission, and the table made mistakes. His intervetion is to correct the mistakes of the table." That's from your executive director, Duane, not mine.

After the TO, the officials allowed the Soviets to inbounded the ball, even though the table officials were trying to alert them that the clock was set to 50 seconds.

So, the ball was inbounded a third time, and this time...well, we all know what happened.

It's true, a series of blunders marred the end of the game. But the mistakes were made by human beings in a pressure cooker, not by officials who were attempting to deliberately throw the game.

BTW, the source of the REFEREE article was an Australian videtape entitled: The Story of the Game: The Official History of Basketball. Perhaps you should see it.

[Hawks Coach]

Excellent game summary - and absolutely right. I grew up in Bloomington Normal IL, where Doug Collins went to college (ISU). He came back and was terated to a gold medal hero's welcome complete with the Goodyear Blimp (the only time that thing ever made it to town when I lived there!). I subscribed avidly to the myth of "we was robbed - and it was those Damn commie block officials!"

Many years later I saw a show that explained what really happened and the full sequence of events. Not what we heard here in the Cold War. but it made a lot more sense, and while i still feel that bad officiating cost us the game, I no longer feel as though it was a case of giving the Ruskies do-overs until they scored.

[ChuckElias]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Well, I wasn't alive in 1980, and was only 1 during the 1984 Olympics.

How the heck did I get to be so friggin' old?!?! Not even alive in 1980? Time for a new keyboard. All the tears have ruined this one.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
How the heck did I get to be so friggin' old?!?! Not even alive in 1980? Time for a new keyboard. All the tears have ruined this one.

Chuck, don't call yourself old - just think of me as being historically deficient.